Re: Corrado Brakes -- Summary so far

[16V JASON <jason@scirocco.org>]

At 07:01 PM 2/6/99 , you wrote:
>The last time I had my car on the track, it had brand new metalmasters,
>drilled rotors, stainless lines, and Pentosin fluid.  I gotta say I did not
>experience a lot of fade, but then again the layout of the track was such
>that there was really only one heavy braking zone.

	Okay, but how often are you on the *track*?  Of course, the 11s will offer
additional fade resistance on the track, but answer me one thing... do you
still think there will be an appreciable gain in performance on the street?

>Now, however, I have a faster car with the same braking system but for
>stock lines and unknown (but un-boiled) brake fluid.  I can get them to
>fade all the time... I'm not sure if the pads are the old Repco MMs or if
>they're the newer PBR MMs (is there even a difference?) since the previous
>owner installed them.

	That's not good.... but you're neglecting the fact that you don't have
performance pads on your car... I guarantee you I could get 11s to fade
after one hard stop with 13" rotors... that's the nature of the beast!


>>Try a 110 mph blast off the freeway off ramp to a stop. (don't do this
>>with other people around. That's uncool.)This will truly show you if you
>>have brake fade issues.

	<snippage of Riley's scary story of Scirocco vs Van -- Almost>

	Okay, I did this last night.  First stop, 93mph-0, full threshold braking.
 I accelerated to 104mph, and repeated the same stop, with a minimal
increase in pedal effort.  When I was going about 20mph on the second run,
I mashed the pedal-- and instantly locked the fronts.  I'm sorry, but I
consider my brakes fade-resistant.  True, I wasn't doing 110 like Shawn
suggested, but I also didn't have enough road to get that fast... but I did
*two* stops... and still no fade.


	Now, TMB will remember (and I have it on video) after our little <ahem>
drag race in Cincy, I did *one* hard stop from about 80 to 0, and my pads
were smoking.... and I had just about *zero* braking left.  I then
proceeded to park my car behind Jay, and with the pedal to the floor, could
barely stop before further indenting his bumper.  Now *that* is fade... but
my argument here is that it's not inherent to the size of the rotors, it's
the pads were responsible, obviously.


>>So.... is this really about Jason not being able to get the 11' brakes
>>and Riley can? what's the real story here?
>
>You betcha!!

	*sniff*.  You got me there... you see, I'm too poor to afford *sniff* the
11" brake conversion.
	Shhhhheeeeeeya... and the REASON I'm poor is cause I dump ALL of my money
into maintaining this beast! :)

>>Will Riley get the 11's and sadden Jason?
>
>Hell yeah...

	Oh wait, I can feel a crying jab coming on.  Gang Way!  Shit, where are my
Kleenex? *sob*


>>Will Jason talk Riley out of the upgrade?
>
>With his arguments?  Fat f*cking chance of that!

	LOL! Fuck you, Riley. :)
	No, my goal wasn't to talk anyone out of *anything*.  If you read my
subject, I was asking a QUESTION-- and my question was, Will these things
make an appreciable difference in overall stopping distance.  The answer,
so far, in my mind, is "probably not".  Why? Because noone has been able to
give me proof that the tires are not the limiting factor in braking
ability.  I understand that increased fade resistance and improved pedal
feel are both benefits of the conversion, but that's not my question...
and, like I've been doing, I *still* don't see the need for increased fade
reduction (with my stock 16v and the way *I* drive, anyways).

	And in response to any criticism this thread may get.. like "we're sick of
reading about this...", now you've hit a sore spot.  I take pride in the
fact that my posts often start a meaningful, intelligent discussion--
however many indecent, rude, sexually-suggestive and/or insulting comments
are thrown in for comic relief.  This is a discussion forum, and we're
discussing something relevant to our cars...  If you don't like the thread,
don't read it. :)

	And, with that said... Shawn is a wacko, and Riley... well.... he just
doesn't know better. :)

	And Kevin Fry, despite the fact that he's a computer nerd, he's the
coolest.  If, for no other reason, that he agrees with me. :)  Thanx, Kevin.

	Now, as the thread stands now:

Benefits:
	-	The 11s, depending on the type of pad chosen, may offer increased
resistance to fade.  Fade reduction may or may not even be necessary, but
is an ultimate safety factor. 
	-	The 11s, again depending on the type of pad chose, may give increased
braking force per unit of pedal pressure because of the increase in swept
area.

Disadvantages:
	-	The increased braking force *may* lead to front/rear bias problems
	-	The overall braking distance will probably not increase *significantly*
	-	The addition of unsprung and reciprocating weight will be detrimental to
vehicle dynamics.  Whether or not this will be a significant difference, is
unknown.
	-	The stock 13 or 14" wheel size cannot be used with the conversion.
(Applies only to some)

Unknowns:
	-	Noone has offered an explanation as to why the 11s would offer easier
modulation.  Shawn argued that because the bigger brakes will not need to
run as close to their maximum potential, they will modulate easier.  My
argument was that because the 11s offer so much more braking force than the
tire can handle, it might be more difficult to modulate them because they
will be so quick to lockup... in essence, they'll be closer to an on/off
pedal than are the 10s.

	Now, as it stands, noone has made an argument strong enough to justify an
11" brake conversion.  If Shawn is indeed correct, and the 11s will have
easier modulation characteristics, then, yes, the 11s might be able to stop
the car more quickly under ideal threshold conditions.

	Any insight?




----------
jason@scirocco.org
1987 Scirocco 16v
57,000 original miles.
http://members.aol.com/rocco16v  

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