Josh Able: puny fuel injectors

[BHonnold@pac-cap.com (Brian Honnold)]

Josh, go read the part #s off the injectors, then someone can cross =
reference them with a flow chart and you will all know exactly what they =
are.

Brian H

-----Original Message-----
From: scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org
[mailto:scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Josh Able
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 9:38 AM
To: scirocco-l@scirocco.org
Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors


and I have the chart to prove it. :P


Josh Able

----- Original Message -----
From: "ATS - Patrick Bureau" <pbureau@attbi.com>
To: "_Scirocco Mailing List" <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:34 PM
Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors


> Yanno, talk is cheap, Dyno Chart speaks by themselves .. (GRIN)
> No I am not doubting what anyone is saying here...
> Just wanted to throw 2 cents in the argument...
> it's a canadian thing... don't worry about it. :)
>
> =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> ATS - Patrick Bureau
> 1985 8v **Planning 3A/JH  Upgrade**
> 1988 16v ** FOR SALE : 1000.00$ **
> Web Site : http://longcoeur.com/scirocco
>
>
> =3D>-----Original Message-----
> =3D>From: scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org
> =3D>[mailto:scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Josh Able
> =3D>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:22 AM
> =3D>To: Scott F. Williams
> =3D>Cc: scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> =3D>Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> =3D>
> =3D>
> =3D>
> =3D>31 pound =3D 310cc
> =3D>running at about 75% duty cycle
> =3D>
> =3D>trust me Scott, other shops that sell full kits use these and
> =3D>produce 350ish
> =3D>hp.
> =3D>
> =3D>
> =3D>These are larger than stock.
> =3D>
> =3D>
> =3D>
> =3D>Josh Able
> =3D>
> =3D>----- Original Message -----
> =3D>From: "Scott F. Williams" <sfwilliams@comcast.net>
> =3D>To: "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>
> =3D>Cc: "Scirocco List" <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> =3D>Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:48 PM
> =3D>Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> =3D>
> =3D>
> =3D>> > nope, even 20v turbos pushing closer to 375hp use 310 many =
times,
> =3D>anything
> =3D>> > they tend to run to rich.
> =3D>>
> =3D>> My man, this is 100% *impossible*. Way more gasoline is needed =
to make
> =3D>that
> =3D>> kind of power. This isn't even an engine capability discussion. =
We're
> =3D>> talking about the amount of chemical energy stored in a given =
volume
of
> =3D>> gasoline. There's only but so much in there! Like I said
> =3D>before, there are
> =3D>> three ways to flow more fuel:
> =3D>>
> =3D>> a) increase the fuel pressure
> =3D>> In order to make 297hp at the wheels, you'd have to run a fuel
> =3D>pressure of
> =3D>> 185psi. This is about 4x the stock amount. Not only would this =
burst
the
> =3D>> fuel lines, it would blow the fuel pressure regulator to bits,
> =3D>destroy the
> =3D>> injectors immediately, and would completely overwhelm the engine
> =3D>management
> =3D>> system.
> =3D>>
> =3D>> b) leave the injectors on longer
> =3D>> The injectors can only flow their maximum rated amount of fuel. =
In
your
> =3D>> stated case that is 310cc/minute at full duty cycle. However, =
the ECU
> =3D>pulses
> =3D>> them on/off at anything less than full load. That is how you get =
a
> =3D>variable
> =3D>> amount of fuel delivery. Figure at idle they might be running at =
5%
duty
> =3D>> cycle. Running them at maximum flow (non-pulsed)is 100% duty =
cycle.
> =3D>However,
> =3D>> the maximum safe duty cycle is 80%. Pushing the injectors beyond =
this
> =3D>point
> =3D>> for a prolonged period of time will destroy them.
> =3D>>
> =3D>> To make the point clear, in order to deliver enough fuel at a
> =3D>*dangerous*
> =3D>> 100% duty cycle (at 50.75psi fuel pressure) you'd need to run =
480cc
> =3D>> injectors! Those 310cc pee shooters would be overwhelmed at
> =3D>just 210hp! In
> =3D>> fact, with that math considered, it sounds like the 310cc are
> =3D>the engine's
> =3D>> *stock* injectors.
> =3D>>
> =3D>> c) install bigger injectors
> =3D>> If you're following me so far, you'll understand why what
> =3D>you're claiming
> =3D>> isn't feasible in the slightest.
> =3D>>
> =3D>> > hm..31 pound injectors do =3D 310cc right?
> =3D>>
> =3D>> Er... *no*. The conversion is actually 10.5:1. That is, 1lb/hour =
=3D
> =3D>> 10.5cc/min. So, if you've really got .31 pound injectors, then
> =3D>the metric
> =3D>> flow rating is really 3.25cc. Now *that* really is far fetched! =
:^)
> =3D>>
> =3D>> Seriously, man. You need to go back to your builder and demand
accurate
> =3D>> information. Little injectors like that are simply incapable of
flowing
> =3D>> enough gas to produce the horsepower that they've sold you on. I
totally
> =3D>> believe that your engine can make that level of power. However, =
the
> =3D>> injectors aren't up to the task. You've either got erroneous
> =3D>flow capacity
> =3D>> information or you're making a lot less power then you think.
> =3D>>
> =3D>> I'm not busting your balls, of course. These are the inflexible =
laws
of
> =3D>> physics and thermodynamics that we're playing with here!
> =3D>>
> =3D>> P.S. If you're injectors are grossly undersized, you will blow =
the
thing
> =3D>to
> =3D>> smithereens in short order. You *must* do the research to ensure =
that
> =3D>you've
> =3D>> got a safe combination. Do it in the name of science, paranoia, =
or
> =3D>whatever.
> =3D>> Just do it and do it right away.
> =3D>> --
> =3D>> Scott F. Williams
> =3D>> NJ Scirocco nut
> =3D>> '99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
> =3D>> Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle
> =3D>> Golf GTI 16v "rollycar"
> =3D>> ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted."
> =3D>>
> =3D>>
> =3D>>
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> =3D>
> =3D>
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