Josh Able: puny fuel injectors

[pbureau@attbi.com (ATS - Patrick Bureau)]

post it :)

==========================================
ATS - Patrick Bureau
1985 8v **Planning 3A/JH  Upgrade**
1988 16v ** FOR SALE : 1000.00$ **
Web Site : http://longcoeur.com/scirocco


=>-----Original Message-----
=>From: scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org
=>[mailto:scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Josh Able
=>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:38 AM
=>To: scirocco-l@scirocco.org
=>Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
=>
=>
=>and I have the chart to prove it. :P
=>
=>
=>Josh Able
=>
=>----- Original Message -----
=>From: "ATS - Patrick Bureau" <pbureau@attbi.com>
=>To: "_Scirocco Mailing List" <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
=>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:34 PM
=>Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
=>
=>
=>> Yanno, talk is cheap, Dyno Chart speaks by themselves .. (GRIN)
=>> No I am not doubting what anyone is saying here...
=>> Just wanted to throw 2 cents in the argument...
=>> it's a canadian thing... don't worry about it. :)
=>>
=>> ==========================================
=>> ATS - Patrick Bureau
=>> 1985 8v **Planning 3A/JH  Upgrade**
=>> 1988 16v ** FOR SALE : 1000.00$ **
=>> Web Site : http://longcoeur.com/scirocco
=>>
=>>
=>> =>-----Original Message-----
=>> =>From: scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org
=>> =>[mailto:scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Josh Able
=>> =>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:22 AM
=>> =>To: Scott F. Williams
=>> =>Cc: scirocco-l@scirocco.org
=>> =>Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
=>> =>
=>> =>
=>> =>
=>> =>31 pound = 310cc
=>> =>running at about 75% duty cycle
=>> =>
=>> =>trust me Scott, other shops that sell full kits use these and
=>> =>produce 350ish
=>> =>hp.
=>> =>
=>> =>
=>> =>These are larger than stock.
=>> =>
=>> =>
=>> =>
=>> =>Josh Able
=>> =>
=>> =>----- Original Message -----
=>> =>From: "Scott F. Williams" <sfwilliams@comcast.net>
=>> =>To: "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>
=>> =>Cc: "Scirocco List" <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
=>> =>Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:48 PM
=>> =>Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
=>> =>
=>> =>
=>> =>> > nope, even 20v turbos pushing closer to 375hp use 310 many times,
=>> =>anything
=>> =>> > they tend to run to rich.
=>> =>>
=>> =>> My man, this is 100% *impossible*. Way more gasoline is
=>needed to make
=>> =>that
=>> =>> kind of power. This isn't even an engine capability
=>discussion. We're
=>> =>> talking about the amount of chemical energy stored in a given volume
=>of
=>> =>> gasoline. There's only but so much in there! Like I said
=>> =>before, there are
=>> =>> three ways to flow more fuel:
=>> =>>
=>> =>> a) increase the fuel pressure
=>> =>> In order to make 297hp at the wheels, you'd have to run a fuel
=>> =>pressure of
=>> =>> 185psi. This is about 4x the stock amount. Not only would this burst
=>the
=>> =>> fuel lines, it would blow the fuel pressure regulator to bits,
=>> =>destroy the
=>> =>> injectors immediately, and would completely overwhelm the engine
=>> =>management
=>> =>> system.
=>> =>>
=>> =>> b) leave the injectors on longer
=>> =>> The injectors can only flow their maximum rated amount of fuel. In
=>your
=>> =>> stated case that is 310cc/minute at full duty cycle.
=>However, the ECU
=>> =>pulses
=>> =>> them on/off at anything less than full load. That is how you get a
=>> =>variable
=>> =>> amount of fuel delivery. Figure at idle they might be running at 5%
=>duty
=>> =>> cycle. Running them at maximum flow (non-pulsed)is 100% duty cycle.
=>> =>However,
=>> =>> the maximum safe duty cycle is 80%. Pushing the injectors
=>beyond this
=>> =>point
=>> =>> for a prolonged period of time will destroy them.
=>> =>>
=>> =>> To make the point clear, in order to deliver enough fuel at a
=>> =>*dangerous*
=>> =>> 100% duty cycle (at 50.75psi fuel pressure) you'd need to run 480cc
=>> =>> injectors! Those 310cc pee shooters would be overwhelmed at
=>> =>just 210hp! In
=>> =>> fact, with that math considered, it sounds like the 310cc are
=>> =>the engine's
=>> =>> *stock* injectors.
=>> =>>
=>> =>> c) install bigger injectors
=>> =>> If you're following me so far, you'll understand why what
=>> =>you're claiming
=>> =>> isn't feasible in the slightest.
=>> =>>
=>> =>> > hm..31 pound injectors do = 310cc right?
=>> =>>
=>> =>> Er... *no*. The conversion is actually 10.5:1. That is, 1lb/hour =
=>> =>> 10.5cc/min. So, if you've really got .31 pound injectors, then
=>> =>the metric
=>> =>> flow rating is really 3.25cc. Now *that* really is far fetched! :^)
=>> =>>
=>> =>> Seriously, man. You need to go back to your builder and demand
=>accurate
=>> =>> information. Little injectors like that are simply incapable of
=>flowing
=>> =>> enough gas to produce the horsepower that they've sold you on. I
=>totally
=>> =>> believe that your engine can make that level of power. However, the
=>> =>> injectors aren't up to the task. You've either got erroneous
=>> =>flow capacity
=>> =>> information or you're making a lot less power then you think.
=>> =>>
=>> =>> I'm not busting your balls, of course. These are the inflexible laws
=>of
=>> =>> physics and thermodynamics that we're playing with here!
=>> =>>
=>> =>> P.S. If you're injectors are grossly undersized, you will blow the
=>thing
=>> =>to
=>> =>> smithereens in short order. You *must* do the research to
=>ensure that
=>> =>you've
=>> =>> got a safe combination. Do it in the name of science, paranoia, or
=>> =>whatever.
=>> =>> Just do it and do it right away.
=>> =>> --
=>> =>> Scott F. Williams
=>> =>> NJ Scirocco nut
=>> =>> '99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
=>> =>> Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle
=>> =>> Golf GTI 16v "rollycar"
=>> =>> ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted."
=>> =>>
=>> =>>
=>> =>>
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=>> =>>
=>> =>
=>> =>
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