Josh Able: puny fuel injectors

[mkii@nycap.rr.com (Josh Able)]

and I have the chart to prove it. :P


Josh Able

----- Original Message -----
From: "ATS - Patrick Bureau" <pbureau@attbi.com>
To: "_Scirocco Mailing List" <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:34 PM
Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors


> Yanno, talk is cheap, Dyno Chart speaks by themselves .. (GRIN)
> No I am not doubting what anyone is saying here...
> Just wanted to throw 2 cents in the argument...
> it's a canadian thing... don't worry about it. :)
>
> ==========================================
> ATS - Patrick Bureau
> 1985 8v **Planning 3A/JH  Upgrade**
> 1988 16v ** FOR SALE : 1000.00$ **
> Web Site : http://longcoeur.com/scirocco
>
>
> =>-----Original Message-----
> =>From: scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org
> =>[mailto:scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Josh Able
> =>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:22 AM
> =>To: Scott F. Williams
> =>Cc: scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> =>Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> =>
> =>
> =>
> =>31 pound = 310cc
> =>running at about 75% duty cycle
> =>
> =>trust me Scott, other shops that sell full kits use these and
> =>produce 350ish
> =>hp.
> =>
> =>
> =>These are larger than stock.
> =>
> =>
> =>
> =>Josh Able
> =>
> =>----- Original Message -----
> =>From: "Scott F. Williams" <sfwilliams@comcast.net>
> =>To: "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>
> =>Cc: "Scirocco List" <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> =>Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:48 PM
> =>Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> =>
> =>
> =>> > nope, even 20v turbos pushing closer to 375hp use 310 many times,
> =>anything
> =>> > they tend to run to rich.
> =>>
> =>> My man, this is 100% *impossible*. Way more gasoline is needed to make
> =>that
> =>> kind of power. This isn't even an engine capability discussion. We're
> =>> talking about the amount of chemical energy stored in a given volume
of
> =>> gasoline. There's only but so much in there! Like I said
> =>before, there are
> =>> three ways to flow more fuel:
> =>>
> =>> a) increase the fuel pressure
> =>> In order to make 297hp at the wheels, you'd have to run a fuel
> =>pressure of
> =>> 185psi. This is about 4x the stock amount. Not only would this burst
the
> =>> fuel lines, it would blow the fuel pressure regulator to bits,
> =>destroy the
> =>> injectors immediately, and would completely overwhelm the engine
> =>management
> =>> system.
> =>>
> =>> b) leave the injectors on longer
> =>> The injectors can only flow their maximum rated amount of fuel. In
your
> =>> stated case that is 310cc/minute at full duty cycle. However, the ECU
> =>pulses
> =>> them on/off at anything less than full load. That is how you get a
> =>variable
> =>> amount of fuel delivery. Figure at idle they might be running at 5%
duty
> =>> cycle. Running them at maximum flow (non-pulsed)is 100% duty cycle.
> =>However,
> =>> the maximum safe duty cycle is 80%. Pushing the injectors beyond this
> =>point
> =>> for a prolonged period of time will destroy them.
> =>>
> =>> To make the point clear, in order to deliver enough fuel at a
> =>*dangerous*
> =>> 100% duty cycle (at 50.75psi fuel pressure) you'd need to run 480cc
> =>> injectors! Those 310cc pee shooters would be overwhelmed at
> =>just 210hp! In
> =>> fact, with that math considered, it sounds like the 310cc are
> =>the engine's
> =>> *stock* injectors.
> =>>
> =>> c) install bigger injectors
> =>> If you're following me so far, you'll understand why what
> =>you're claiming
> =>> isn't feasible in the slightest.
> =>>
> =>> > hm..31 pound injectors do = 310cc right?
> =>>
> =>> Er... *no*. The conversion is actually 10.5:1. That is, 1lb/hour =
> =>> 10.5cc/min. So, if you've really got .31 pound injectors, then
> =>the metric
> =>> flow rating is really 3.25cc. Now *that* really is far fetched! :^)
> =>>
> =>> Seriously, man. You need to go back to your builder and demand
accurate
> =>> information. Little injectors like that are simply incapable of
flowing
> =>> enough gas to produce the horsepower that they've sold you on. I
totally
> =>> believe that your engine can make that level of power. However, the
> =>> injectors aren't up to the task. You've either got erroneous
> =>flow capacity
> =>> information or you're making a lot less power then you think.
> =>>
> =>> I'm not busting your balls, of course. These are the inflexible laws
of
> =>> physics and thermodynamics that we're playing with here!
> =>>
> =>> P.S. If you're injectors are grossly undersized, you will blow the
thing
> =>to
> =>> smithereens in short order. You *must* do the research to ensure that
> =>you've
> =>> got a safe combination. Do it in the name of science, paranoia, or
> =>whatever.
> =>> Just do it and do it right away.
> =>> --
> =>> Scott F. Williams
> =>> NJ Scirocco nut
> =>> '99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
> =>> Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle
> =>> Golf GTI 16v "rollycar"
> =>> ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted."
> =>>
> =>>
> =>>
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