Re: front swaybars vs SHINE (you know Meze has gotta talk some shit here.....NOVEL)

[Shawn C Meze <skerocdriver@juno.com>]

On Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:06:47 -0700 (PDT) josh Wyte <josh_wyte@yahoo.com>
writes:
>Don't condemn it unless you've tried it.
>
>I've done it all.  No front bar, stock front bar and
>larger front bar.  All with the largest rear bar I
>could find, which is the Shine rear bar.


Hey Josh! havent heard anything out of you since FW 98! Glad your still
around. 
Curious, was this on your A2 chassis car? 


>First some notes on the Shine rear swaybar.  It fit's
>inside the twist beam axle.  There are no brackets to


Its a cool bar. It only really stiffens the I-beam portion of the rear
axle. Any flex that comes will be from the trailing arms. Still, its a
good bar, good system.
I think the thread was more on the theory of the NFB. 



>Now onto the front bar controversy...  
>It really depends on what you do.  The entire point
>Shine is trying to make is that the car understeers
>(pushes) as it sits stock.  If you increase *both* the
>front and rear swaybar sizes the car will still push. 
>Why do you want to do this for performance driving? 
>The answer?  You don't!


Well, not true. The problem with Shrine is they're so sold and close
minded on their product they refuse other theories whether they be from
new technology or old school dynamics. I have a hard time respecting
someone who cant respect other peoples findings. if your associated with
Shrine, beware, I will hurt your feelings. Get over it quickly, its
nothing personal. 

First to answer your question (that you deemed necessary to answer for
me, thanks!) for the average guy who doesn't road race (who might see
Shrines advertisements and think, hey, there's an idea!) and wants to
gain a little more performance out of their car, adding both a BIG front
and rear swaybar will force the car to corner flatter which will in turn
make the tire block stand up straighter (also known as maintaining tire
camber.) and the end result IS better cornering. The average person
doesn't have stiff springs or shocks and these are the people who will
see a definite performance gain by adding large F/R bars. Most people
don't road race. Think about it. 

This would be a kick ass article in a mag if we could find someone to do
it. Here is my idea:
Take a completely stock Scirocco and remove the swaybars and run it on a
skid pad. Add just a rear bar only and repeat the test. Then add a front
bar with the rear bar and id be willing to bet Bretts balls that the 2
swaybar setup will net the best skid pad numbers. 

The bottom line is, do what works for you. I too have used the no front
bar, stock front bar and larger (22mm) front bar on the street, various
autox courses and road course at Buttonwillow Raceway and Parumph on my
82 Scirocco. I have used the early NS race springs and later swapped to
the H&R road race springs (400lbs) with a NS 28mm rear bar with a stock
swaybar inverted over the NS bar. I have a very stiff rear axle which
doesn't lift the inside tire more than 1"-2" in any corner on any track.
Ok, That's what *I* have just as a background on the car. Oh, its got a
Quaife too. 

My experience with this is the NFB is fun and can be fast for road
racing. You need ALOT of spring rates to make the no bar work at its
best. I had alot of fun with it at Parumph on corded slicks. Like its
been said by so many already, it would be WAY too harsh for driving on
the street.

Stock front bar: Its good on the track and street. Its a little more
predictable in the corners. No sudden snap spins like the no front bar
would try to do. (I have video... well, no, Potterman has it still.) I
could still throttle off, stab brake and have fun thru the corner. Very
predictable for what the car is. 

Big front bar: Necessary on the autox. FAK Shrines preachings on this
issue. Its an Autox, corner loads are not as high as what's seen in road
racing and maintaining contact patch is KEY. don't believe me, look at
the FSP results from the 2000 nationals. Where are the NFB cars? top 5
(VW's) were with bars. THHHHHHHHAANK YOUUUUUUU! 	



>The stock front swaybar and the large rear bar will do
>several things.  First of all you won't spin the
>inside front wheel as much coming out of turns.


For the most part, I agree with that. There is alot of variables which
will alter the end result. It just "car and driver" specific. 



>Increased traction= lower lap times and better auto-x
>times.  It'll also allow the rear tires to stay more
>planted, more traction=better.  You'll also have less
>push and a chance to position the car with the
>throttle and brake, ie controllable oversteer to clip
>apexs.  


Maintain tire contact patch will get you better traction, get better
autox times. I don't know how you can get better traction with a tire
That's only getting 40% of its potential grip? Id agree 100% with your
above statement on a road racing course but have to heartily disagree
with it for the autox. Keep in mind, my comments are for A1 chassis cars.



>With a large front swaybar you get alot more push. 
>You tie the front wheels together making it easier to
>spin the inside front wheel coming out of a turn.  YOu
>hike up the inside rear tire even more coming around
>bends, less traction.  You can't control the car with
>the throttle or brake through a turn.  The car does
>"feel" better for lower speed street driving tho, as
>it's very flat and you get alot of resistance thru the
>steering wheel when you put the car into a turn.



No? Then how do I do so well with my car? Ill be the very first person to
tell you its not a 100% dedicated autocross car yet it does so well? How
can this be according to your theory? Just another quick comment (if
that's possible from me, right.) to try and make my point. 
Ive got my front end set at -3 camber. Going into a turn, with my big
front swaybar, the tire will roll over some which reduces the camber.
That's a natural effect from the tire and weight shifting to the front
outside tire. Now the tire is standing up at almost zero camber and ive
got 100% ultimate grip from the tire. I can maintain a higher speed thru
the turn because of this stick which results in a faster overall time.
Now as im apexing the corner I roll back onto the throttle which shifts
some weight to the rear yet im able to gain foreword momentum. I can
adjust my placement on the corner with the throttle and brake.  I also
use quite often, "trail braking" very deep in a autox corner. Brake to
(or close to) the apex and power off. 
Without the front swaybar, the tire would loose alot more camber and in
order for me to compensate for it, I would need to install camber plates
as well as add much stiffer springs. Since its a daily driven street car,
That's not an option which is totally my point. Most people have the same
kind of car and use it for the same reason and this my friend,  is why
the Shrine theories don't work for us. 


[Disclaimer]
I was not mad, angry or even close to being pissed while creating this
amazing document. Its a really good (sometimes overheated and over
discussed in those -other- forums..)  topic which I have a really wicked
opinion about and think I might know enough to give a somewhat
educated/experienced opinion to. I welcome discussion which could help me
see the light that im not seeing for myself. If I have pissed anyone off,
well then That's just too bad, Isn't it? Seek counseling. :)


Shawn Méze
86' Jetta GLi 8V       84' Scirocco 8V           88' Corvette -SS 30-
82' Scirocco GTi -FSP 54-     79' "Project FSP Scirocco"
The Fastest, Quickest, Cleanest and best looking Scirocco in all of San
Diego!
http://www.Geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/1308/index.htm

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

--
Email LIST problems to: scirocco-l-probs@scirocco.org.
To unsubscibe send "unsubscribe scirocco-l" in the message to majordomo@scirocco.org