Re: front swaybars vs SHINE (you know Meze has gotta talk some shit here.....NOVEL)

[josh Wyte <josh_wyte@yahoo.com>]

Shine bases *everything* off of road racing
experience.  That explains alot of their viewpoint. 
When they set up a car specifically for auto-x, they
control the front end with wickedly high front spring
rates.  No way is that comfortable for the street.  So
they compensate somewhat for the lack of front bar
with spring rates.

For a street driver the big front bar feels nice, but
the stock front bar will allow more power to be
planted on a car with the stock open diff...

I've found the ultimate answer... Audi Quattro!  :-)

Although I am regetting the sale of my old A2 G60
GTI...

-josh


--- Shawn C Meze <skerocdriver@juno.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:06:47 -0700 (PDT) josh Wyte
> <josh_wyte@yahoo.com>
> writes:
> >Don't condemn it unless you've tried it.
> >
> >I've done it all.  No front bar, stock front bar
> and
> >larger front bar.  All with the largest rear bar I
> >could find, which is the Shine rear bar.
> 
> 
> Hey Josh! havent heard anything out of you since FW
> 98! Glad your still
> around. 
> Curious, was this on your A2 chassis car? 
> 
> 
> >First some notes on the Shine rear swaybar.  It
> fit's
> >inside the twist beam axle.  There are no brackets
> to
> 
> 
> Its a cool bar. It only really stiffens the I-beam
> portion of the rear
> axle. Any flex that comes will be from the trailing
> arms. Still, its a
> good bar, good system.
> I think the thread was more on the theory of the
> NFB. 
> 
> 
> 
> >Now onto the front bar controversy...  
> >It really depends on what you do.  The entire point
> >Shine is trying to make is that the car understeers
> >(pushes) as it sits stock.  If you increase *both*
> the
> >front and rear swaybar sizes the car will still
> push. 
> >Why do you want to do this for performance driving?
> 
> >The answer?  You don't!
> 
> 
> Well, not true. The problem with Shrine is they're
> so sold and close
> minded on their product they refuse other theories
> whether they be from
> new technology or old school dynamics. I have a hard
> time respecting
> someone who cant respect other peoples findings. if
> your associated with
> Shrine, beware, I will hurt your feelings. Get over
> it quickly, its
> nothing personal. 
> 
> First to answer your question (that you deemed
> necessary to answer for
> me, thanks!) for the average guy who doesn't road
> race (who might see
> Shrines advertisements and think, hey, there's an
> idea!) and wants to
> gain a little more performance out of their car,
> adding both a BIG front
> and rear swaybar will force the car to corner
> flatter which will in turn
> make the tire block stand up straighter (also known
> as maintaining tire
> camber.) and the end result IS better cornering. The
> average person
> doesn't have stiff springs or shocks and these are
> the people who will
> see a definite performance gain by adding large F/R
> bars. Most people
> don't road race. Think about it. 
> 
> This would be a kick ass article in a mag if we
> could find someone to do
> it. Here is my idea:
> Take a completely stock Scirocco and remove the
> swaybars and run it on a
> skid pad. Add just a rear bar only and repeat the
> test. Then add a front
> bar with the rear bar and id be willing to bet
> Bretts balls that the 2
> swaybar setup will net the best skid pad numbers. 
> 
> The bottom line is, do what works for you. I too
> have used the no front
> bar, stock front bar and larger (22mm) front bar on
> the street, various
> autox courses and road course at Buttonwillow
> Raceway and Parumph on my
> 82 Scirocco. I have used the early NS race springs
> and later swapped to
> the H&R road race springs (400lbs) with a NS 28mm
> rear bar with a stock
> swaybar inverted over the NS bar. I have a very
> stiff rear axle which
> doesn't lift the inside tire more than 1"-2" in any
> corner on any track.
> Ok, That's what *I* have just as a background on the
> car. Oh, its got a
> Quaife too. 
> 
> My experience with this is the NFB is fun and can be
> fast for road
> racing. You need ALOT of spring rates to make the no
> bar work at its
> best. I had alot of fun with it at Parumph on corded
> slicks. Like its
> been said by so many already, it would be WAY too
> harsh for driving on
> the street.
> 
> Stock front bar: Its good on the track and street.
> Its a little more
> predictable in the corners. No sudden snap spins
> like the no front bar
> would try to do. (I have video... well, no,
> Potterman has it still.) I
> could still throttle off, stab brake and have fun
> thru the corner. Very
> predictable for what the car is. 
> 
> Big front bar: Necessary on the autox. FAK Shrines
> preachings on this
> issue. Its an Autox, corner loads are not as high as
> what's seen in road
> racing and maintaining contact patch is KEY. don't
> believe me, look at
> the FSP results from the 2000 nationals. Where are
> the NFB cars? top 5
> (VW's) were with bars. THHHHHHHHAANK YOUUUUUUU! 	
> 
> 
> 
> >The stock front swaybar and the large rear bar will
> do
> >several things.  First of all you won't spin the
> >inside front wheel as much coming out of turns.
> 
> 
> For the most part, I agree with that. There is alot
> of variables which
> will alter the end result. It just "car and driver"
> specific. 
> 
> 
> 
> >Increased traction= lower lap times and better
> auto-x
> >times.  It'll also allow the rear tires to stay
> more
> >planted, more traction=better.  You'll also have
> less
> >push and a chance to position the car with the
> >throttle and brake, ie controllable oversteer to
> clip
> >apexs.  
> 
> 
> Maintain tire contact patch will get you better
> traction, get better
> autox times. I don't know how you can get better
> traction with a tire
> That's only getting 40% of its potential grip? Id
> agree 100% with your
> above statement on a road racing course but have to
> heartily disagree
> with it for the autox. Keep in mind, my comments are
> for A1 chassis cars.
> 
> 
> 
> >With a large front swaybar you get alot more push. 
> >You tie the front wheels together making it easier
> to
> >spin the inside front wheel coming out of a turn. 
> YOu
> >hike up the inside rear tire even more coming
> around
> >bends, less traction.  You can't control the car
> with
> >the throttle or brake through a turn.  The car does
> >"feel" better for lower speed street driving tho,
> as
> >it's very flat and you get alot of resistance thru
> the
> >steering wheel when you put the car into a turn.
> 
> 
> 
> No? Then how do I do so well with my car? Ill be the
> very first person to
> tell you its not a 100% dedicated autocross car yet
> it does so well? How
> can this be according to your theory? Just another
> quick comment (if
> 
=== message truncated ===


=====
Josh Wyte 
Momentum Motorsports
508-833-3024 After 5 pm EST

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