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RE: [tech] suspension - Front upper stress bar Q's



I'm with Dave and Jason on this one. DEFINITELY made a difference on my car.
Driving the same roads before and after, you could tell.

I don't have an upper bar in my Subaru 2.5RS (not legal in GS), but my
friend even claims that it made a difference in his car. The 2.5RS
supposedly has one of the stiffest frames you can get in an inexpensive car.

Neal


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> [mailto:owner-scirocco-l@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Dave Ewing
> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 10:53 PM
> To: Scirocco List
> Subject: Re: [tech] suspension - Front upper stress bar Q's
>
>
> When I installed one on my Rabbit (a cheap one at that) I noticed a huge
> difference.  Nothing is cracked or broken on my car so I know
> that the upper
> stress bar was the reason for the difference.  Plus, now that I
> have the 16v
> in my Rabbit, I don't have an upper stress bar because I plan on making it
> and haven't got around to it but I did feel the difference when I had to
> take the other one off.  My opinion?  DEFINEATELY makes a difference.
>
> Dave
> 77 Rabbit 2.0L 16v
> 84 Scirocco
>
> > >Hi Andy,
> > >         The upper stress bars won't help the strut towers themselves
> from
> > >cracking or disforming -- but they will help the torsional
> rigidy of the
> > >car as a whole.  Imagine for a minute what the front of the car looks
> like
> > >without any body pieces up front.  You have two crossmembers running
> > >longitudinally, connected at the bottom by the front crossmember,
> > >stressbar, and engine.  But you have no support higher up, because the
> hood
> > >can't be welded to the fenders...
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >Thus, on bumps and high-force curves, the whole front end of
> the car can
> > >easily bend.  Adding an upper-level support member greatly reduces body
> > >flex down below.
> > >
> > >If you drive a car with an upper brace right after one without, you can
> > >feel the difference immediately.  Turn-in is considerably quicker with
> the
> > >tie-bar.  The steering is more precise over surface irregularities, and
> the
> > >car tracks much better.  The biggest difference is on long
> sweepers with
> > >undulating or slightly bumpy (i.e. not enough to bottom the
> > >suspension).  Take the turn really fast (like at 90%) and keep the
> steering
> > >wheel in the same spot.  You'll notice the car squirm around a
> whole lot
> > >less with the upper tie bar.  The reason is because the front isn't
> flexing
> > >as much, which keeps the steering geometry more consistent.
> >
> > I know I'm not the best driver in the world but, I have put a
> lot of seat
> > time in modified scirocco's, owned them for the last 20 years.   I have
> > driven with and without and cannot tell the difference.(upper bar)
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >Mind you, you'll _never_ eliminate body flex on an A1 by doing anything
> > >short of welding in a 500-point roll cage, but if you're a sensitive
> enough
> > >driver to be able to feel the frame flexing, you'll feel a tremendous
> > >difference with the upper tie bar.
> > >
> > >And, as an aside, if it didn't work, stiff-framed cars like the E36 BMW
> > >3-series wouldn't use them on the M3s. :)
> >
> >
> > True but that car is a diferent creature and I'll bet they are
> not held on
> b
> > y four  tiny (6mm?) bolts that connect to the strut bearing.
> Maybe if you
> > welded them to the car you might see some difference.
> > >Jason
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >At 08:14 PM 1/15/01 , andkat wrote:
> > >>I don't think anybody would notice the car handling any different with
> or
> > >>without a upper stress bar.  The only time I've seen the paint on the
> > strut
> > >>towers cracking is after somebody hit a curb.  There is just know way
> > those
> > >>things are going to flex enough to make a difference. The lower is a
> > >>completely different story.
> > >>
> > >>Andy 1.9 '79
> > >>-----Original Message-----
> > >>From: Randy Block <RandyB@E-Risk.com>
> > >>To: scirocco-l@scirocco.org <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> > >>Date: 15 January, 2001 12:29 PM
> > >>Subject: [tech] suspension - Front upper stress bar Q's
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >Ok,
> > >> >Since were on the subject of suspension components.
> > >> >I am currently running a Neuspeed upper strut tie bar,
> always have on
> my
> > >> >A1's
> > >> >What are others running that they believe to be better and why?
> > >> >I have always had my doubts about the Neuspeed unit due to small
> tubing
> > >>dia.
> > >> >and possible flex at the bends.
> > >> >I have had to BOW the bar to get it to fit before, this seems to
> > discredit
> > >> >the functionality of the bar, right?
> > >> >Should the bar have SOME flex in it?
> > >> >I have seen other designs that seem to provide more stiffness, Dick
> W's
> > >> >square tube bar, Craig's stainless bar, bars with much larger tubing
> > dia,
> > >> >etc... etc...
> > >> >My guess is the reason the Neuspeed bar is so common is
> simply due to
> > the
> > >> >#'s made and the low price.
> > >> >
> > >> >I guess my question is:
> > >> >Is STIFFER better, or should there be a little flex in the
> upper strut
> > tie
> > >> >bar.
> > >> >
> > >> >Thanks,
> > >> >
> > >> >Randy B
> > >> >81 (Mars) Scirocco S - Techtonics Tuning 1847cc 8V
> > >> >81 (Cosmos) Scirocco S - future Oettinger 16V project
> > >> >87 Jetta GLI 16V - daily driver
> > >> >
> > >> >--
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> > send
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> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >----------
> > >1987 Scirocco 16v
> > >1988 Mercedes 190E Sport Euro
> > >
> > >
> > >http://www.scirocco16v.org
> > >
> > >
> > >--
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