Re: HOR's suck!!! and you pay for it)->Was "don't suck"

[Kathy Teulie <104372.1061@compuserve.com>]

Good input Steven
I have the total Setup that Autotech sz is best for me and my street
driving 16v.
I Auto-x my MK1 but not my 16v. The Scirocco 16v has Autotech
bars, the straps break all the time, HOR springs, that sag, and
Bilstein sports. I think the shocks are good. The springs are just too low.
I drove on them for a year and they just got too low. I took off the US
bumper
and the car drove better. The car drives good but does not take bumps well.
My MK1 drives Great but man you need to buckle up! I drove Kevin's 2.0
16v with Neuspeed springs and the same shocks and found that his car
can take the bumps like a champ. I drove the same road that I drive every
day
and my 16v SLAMS in the same places each time. I have to drive in the bike
lane
to keep the car from slamming in spots. I do not need to drive in the bike
lane
with my MK1 or Kevin's MK2. So I think that the springs are just poor. I
have driven
several MK2 Scirocco's and I think the H&R's with Koni are the best. way to
go.
You can set the car for your needs. The Autotech setup like mine is not
that good
if you have the US bumpers and AC. If I were going to Auto-x my 16v I would
start all over.
I think you could drive my 16v and fall in love if you had old stock
springs and
you were driving a car that was setup for the first time. My car does drive
good.
You just can't take the little bumps with out slamming. I am not talking
about
pot holes I am talking about small bumps that most drivers don't even see.
I am driving on new west coast roads. My car is in great condition too.
The Autotech bars are stiff. If the springs were better I bet the straps
would
not break as much. I have extra straps in the car for the days that I hit a
pothole.
All and I must say that I am not a big fan of Autotech suspensions. I think
you can make custom straps upgrade your springs and keep the Bilstein
sports.


SNIP --->" I am
 getting rubbing in the front on some bumps I just need a little more
 clearance.  Any CHEAP ideas to get about half an inch higher....there
 are plenty of expensive ones..
END SNIP

The offset on your rims could be off. You will rip off the liner of the
body kit
with the HOR's and 205's. This is why I say you can't fix your problem till
the HOR's are gone. Change your bumpers to Euro's and remember 195x50x15
is about as big of a DIA as you should go. I run 205x50x15's D40 M2's.
 You can get smaller DIA's with 16's but you will have so little side wall
and
 your car will slam more. Remember that the tire is the first part of your
suspension.
I have a friend that has the same  boge turbo gas shocks as you with the
Neuspeed
springs and it works good.

Doug
87 16v silver Scirocco "GTX"
81 8v red Scirocco "S" Koni  Adjustables and  H&R's
90 16v 5 speed Passat WGN. with  boge turbo gas shocks <-- was Auto last
week
"HOR's are not good, Autotech straps break and your car slams."

*****************
Suspensions need delicate matching. I here people complain about this topic
alot. The bigger question is whats combinations work and for what?

what kind of struts are being used with what springs?

what kind of driving conditions east coast or west coast roads?

street driving or autoX?

certain products are designed for certain conditions. Try doing some
homework and check the rest of the suspension to. If the coils are hitting
too bad get a stiffer strut. and remember the stiffer you make things (ie
urthane, hd struts, hd mounts) the more harsness on each other piece
especially the body (car and you)

Also the rest of the suspension on a car has a big impact on other
components too.

I have  a friend with a 88 Golf GTI 16V. every piece of rubber on the
suspension was replaced with Urthane. Koni's with HOR springs on each
corner. Neuspeed front and rear sweay bars, upper and lower front tie bars,
upper rear tie bar and vr6 front strut mounts. He drives it 100 miles a day
on philly roads. In the last 4 years he's put ever 150,000  miles on the
car. The Odo reads 310,000. The suspensions been on the car for 140,000.
Today the car sits at the same height the struts have never been
warrentied.
We've replaced more engine mounts, BALL JOINTS, tierods  and Trans parts
than any thing else. He also Auto-Xs thats why he has the car this way not
because he's a posser tried to look kool.

M 2 cents 4 U

Steven Toughill
ASE Cert. VW Technician
Volks-Tech Inc.
"Good input"
******************
Hey Alan,

Maybe its the shocks we have (bilstein) Since they are so good, the 
springs dont matter.  I love my setup.

Pete
"Bilsteins are great?"
*******************
I removed the US bumpers and replaced them with the Euro
bumpers. This made driving on my HOR springs better.
If you want to remove all the extra stuff from your car like
the AC you can buy time on your HOR springs. I like H&R's
They cost more but they are much better springs.

Doug
 " HOR's suck!!! " " Koni Sport Adjustables" and " H&R's" are good!
**************
eh, I like how a few people totally avoided your question by telling
you to get smaller wheels.  HAH, My friend Tim has a Mk2 with 17s and
doesnt get any rubbing.  I have a 79 with 17s and I only rub a bit.  As
far as your setup, if it rides well, the only way I can think of raising
the front is to make some sort of 10-15mm plate that goes between the
strut bearing and the car body.  If you have a front stress bar, you may
encounter problems of the nut not reading the stud, but the plate is the
only thing I can think of that would be a cheap way to go about raising
the front end.  IF you are all over the road and have lots of suspension
travel and dont like your setup, get some Koni Sport Adjustables =p

 André
 Lime Green 79 Scirocco ©
" Koni Sport Adjustables" are good!
***************
 Don't do the Spax!!

Right on Neal - Spax Sux!  A local VR6 Corrado owner purchased Spax for the
rear of his baby a few years back.  The shocks were already leaking when he
had them installed!!  The shocks never fit into the upper mounts properly
and
rattled until he sold the car - of course, he LOVED those shocks.  We never
could get a bad word from him about them.  Of course, this is the guy who
bought a Mercedes 190 16v and didn't rev it over 4000 rpms for fear of
hurting
the engine!!

Matthew Yip
 "spax suck"
***************
At 2:34 pm -0400 22/4/99, James G. wrote:
>I'm looking at replacing the Hor springs with Neuspeed or Spax.  The

Ack!!  No, don't buy spax either.... Spax makes good 1-year suspension
parts.  After that 1 year, they're garbage IME... the springs sagged and
the shocks died.  Spax is only an upgrade from stock, and only as a
stop-gap improvement.  :P
Riley McDowall
 "spax suck"
***************
I pretty much agree with Matthews statement.  Mine worked great for
more then a year, probably because I stored the car winters.  But they
did sure sag.  In fact, when I changed out the Boge Progas shocks and
Hor springs I discovered that the front end of my car was resting on
bump stops.  Definite sagging occured.  Handled really great too, but
was harsh over bumps.  The Koni/H&R combo I have now is much much
better, all around. But cost more then twice as much, almost three
times actually.  I guess to a large extent in this area, you get what
you pay for.

==Brett
 " HOR's suck!!! " " Koni Sport Adjustables" and " H&R's" are good!
*****************
Lets see, less then a month till a year is up. Still at the same ride 
hight.

Pete

>HOR Tech springs will work fine for a few months - check back in a 
year when
>your front end is sagging...

 " HOR's are not old yet!!! Hmm will they suck soon? "
*************************
Don't do the Spax!!

This has gone 'round on the list a few times, and a number of complaints
have been made about Spax, especially about the shocks, but I've heard a
few
bad things about the springs, too. I just met a guy last week who has a '98
GTI that had Spax shocks and springs. He already replaced the shocks 'cause
they were so bad (remember, the whole car is only a year old!). He wants to
replace the springs, too.

A lot of people that I've talked to (Including Mike Potter and the local
watercooled club here in Minneapolis) seem to prefer Neuspeed or H&R. There
are probably other good brands out there, but I just ordered a set of H&Rs
from the Potterman.

Anyone have experience with Eibach? A local Firestone dealer recommended
them with Koni shocks. I know that some of their racing application stuff
is
real good, but haven't heard anything from street VW people like most of
us...

Neal
 "spax suck" What about Eibach?
*********************
Adding my thoughts:  They suck for long term applications (like 2+years)

I'm looking at replacing the Hor springs with Neuspeed or Spax.  The
fronts are sagging, and getting lower.  Plus, my upper strut bearings are
shot even though they're the HD ones.
-James
 "Old HOR's suck!!! Young HOR's are OK but don't keep them.
************************
Message text written by "DaleWitt"
>I maintain that it is possible to get a bad set of springs from any
manufacturer.  They
are made in batches and problems can occur from time to time due to a
breakdown
in qualiity control, either in production or material source.  Nuespeed has
used HOR
and Eibach in the past.  My 5 year old Neuspeed sports with Bilsteins show
no wear
at all, and have taken very hard driving.  I have a 10 year old Sachs race
setup on
my 82 and it still performs excellent.  I have heard of problems with both
Sachs and
HORs.  I have seen Spax break down in one year and others last for years. 
My
experience with HORs has been good.

Dale
86 2.0 16v rocco
82 2.1 16v rocco (Zender 400 w/NOS)

"All spring manufacturers can have a bad day" Some suck less" 
----------
> Please add to this list if you think HOR's are good or bad.
> Thanks
> Doug.
>
> ***********************
> Sure is, you're car then rides like a Civic with cut springs and stock
> shocks! ;)
>
> -Jason Kendall
> " HOR's suck!!! "
> **************
> --- Jason Kendall <jasonk@widomaker.com> wrote:
> > <snip> Finally the spring rate just disappeared, and ruined both
struts.
>
> That's a bad thing, right? :)
> Matthew Yip
> " HOR's suck!!! "
> *****************
> Message text written by Matthew Yip
> HOR Tech springs will work fine for a few months - check back in a year
> when
> your front end is sagging...
>
> Matthew Yip
> mgyip@yahoo.com
> " HOR's suck!!! "
> ***********************
> Message text written by Jason Kendall
>
> My friends Rabbit GTI had Hor's.  After 2 years of use, all of the coils
> had
> flat spots on them from smacking each other.  Then where the flat spots
> were, they started rusting, baddly.  Finally the spring rate just
> disappeared, and ruined both struts.
>
> -Jason Kendall
> " HOR's suck!!! "
> ****************************
> Message text written by -alan
>
> ummm... i personally know of someone who has had these springs for quite
> some
> time.. they are not sagging.. perhaps someone got a bad one somewhere
down
> the line. i'll admit they are low, but is that really a bad thing? i
really
>
> like my set-up. they work great with the bilstein sports. :)
>
> -alan
> " HOR's don't suck!!! "
> ***********************************
> Message text written by Doug Teulie
>
> (From Pete) ---> "I don't know what you are talking about"
>
> Just go for a drive, sit back  and relax.
> MMMM SLAM MMMMMMMMMM  SLAM MMMMMMMM
> MMMMMMMMMMMM SLAM MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
>
> Yes they do drive OK but then they sag and get  flat spots. If you drive
a
> car
> like yours with Neuspeed springs or H&R,s you will see why
> the HOR's suck. I have them on my 16v  with the bilstein sports and I
know
> how bad
> the springs are. I am not getting new springs soon but If I had the money
> I would get better springs. I hope that some of the list folks see this
> message
> and don't get stuck with the HOR trash springs.
> "IMHO"
> Doug
> " HOR's suck!!! "
> ***********************************
> Message text written by Pete
>
> I dont know what you are talking about, I have HORs on my 16v, w/ 15x7 
> wheels (195-50-15) And the setup kicks ass.  I love them, They handle 
> great, look good (I admit, they are low) And were a good price.
>
> Pete
> " HOR's don't suck!!! "
> ****************************************
> Message text written by Kathy Teulie
> >I drove a car set up like yours and it did drive OK.
> You need a good tire size. Now if it were me
> I would go for the 15x6 or 15x6.5 rims too. I think 16's
> are too big! If you change rims your problem will
> still be there. You need to ditch the HOR springs.
> HOR springs are not good on 16v's. I am not sure
> if they work on 8v's but I know that they do not work
> on 16v's. The spring is too soft and too low.
> I have H&R on my MK1 and they are much better
> then the HOR's on my 16v. HOR's suck!!! and you
> pay for it because you need a real spring to replace them.
> Did you get them at Autotech? Next time call Mike Potter.
> He will not push junk like HOR's on you. Your shocks or OK.
> I had a set of them on my MK1. Not bad. But KONI is the best.
> IMHO
> Doug.
> " HOR's suck!!! "
> *******************************************
> Message text written by Kevin Collins
> >Michael Leach wrote:
>
> > I really need a little help. I have an 87 16v with boge turbo gas
> > shocks and hor springs  .......   but doesnt everybody who does not
> > have the money for he really good ones....anyway as I was saying I
> > recently purchased 16x7.5 Borbet rims with 205-45-16 tires and I am
> > getting rubbing in the front on some bumps I just need a little more
> > clearance.  Any CHEAP ideas to get about half an inch higher....there
> > are plenty of expensive ones......  Thanks and just to let everyone
> > know only on the list for 2 weeks and heading to Cincy the Rochester
> > contingent is growing!!!!!!!!!
>
> Just my opinion.. but 16x7.6s on a 'rocco are just plain too big.  Plus
> you're hauling around a LOT of extra unsprung weight - not good for
> performance at all.
>
> Maybe you could swap for some 15x6.5s of some sort?  This would solve
> your problem, though it may or may not be cheap...
>
>
> --
> Kevin Collins<<<


--
To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe scirocco-l" to majordomo@scirocco.org.
If you experience other problems, email: scirocco-l-probs@scirocco.org