Re: scirocco: antidote to the 944

[admin <centre@orthomed.org>]

Ok, ok maybe I was a bit hasty....
>I read this Caleb character's page, and I'd not call it credible.  944s
>have something of a bad reputation, but (for those that did not see), this
>Caleb guy drove his 944 through a puddle - some 944s have an intake tube in
>the wheelwell - the engine hydrolocked, he wanted Porsche to pay for it.
>"It" being a 1983 model year car.  I don't own a 944, but even I know about
>the intake tube.
>
>Those watercooled porsches are the lamest excuse for a
>>sportcar.
>
>944 S2?  Ever ridden in one?  Oh my gosh acceleration, handles incredible.
>Unreal car.  Heard the 944 Turbos are pretty schnitzen, too, and I'd guess
>you could do some pretty neat & inexpensive things to a 924 Turbo.

Yeah, I have years ago. Thats why this 924S brought out such an emotional 
reaction when I saw it again. It IS a beautiful machine. The thought put 
into the design of the car on every level is obvious. Porshe designs a 
car considering the totality of all its aspects-nearly perfect wieght 
distribution and handling combined with aerodynamics and confort rather 
than just raw horsepower. Running across Caleb's page was really 
disturbing to me too. I don't know anyone who owns a 924 or 944 so 
reading this diatribe I thoughtit was a tragedy that such a heady 
experience of driving a porsche is marred by the unreliability of the 
car." There's something to be said for the endurance of good design. Look 
at the evolution of the 911 vs. say a celica over 20 years. The celica, 
whatever it has become now was a pretty pathetic rustbucket out of the 
womb. Porshe designs right the first time and tweeks it incrementally 
over many years. 

> Read about some owner experiences- one of the most appalling
>>litanies of car woes you'll ever read, and it'll deepen your appreciation
>>for the scirocco. 944's blowing cylinder heads to bits for the mere
>>offense of driving through  puddles.
>
>Let's say that this puddle incident of Caleb's happened in 93.  That means
>it _did'nt_ blow up for the ten years prior, and I am sure it encountered a
>puddle somewhere down the line.  In this case, I'm tending to side with the
>car, not Caleb - read Caleb's lemon pages, too, impressive collection of
>disgruntled idiots.

porsche USA in acknowledging the most elementary design flaws. Owners
>>describing their cars as "moneypit", or "evil piece of german crap" or
>>"we must destroy our porsches before they destroy us."
>
>You know what I think the problem is?  924s and 944s have gotten cheap
>enough that people with less money can afford the car - like me, I could
>probably get one if I really put my mind to it.  Problem is, when you buy a
>P-car with 100k on it, if it has not been maintained, there are a LOT of
>things that need doing, and they're NOT cheap - that's why you can pick up
>a 944 for $3-4000.  It needs lots of things to bring it back to speed, JUST
>LIKE A SCIROCCO.  Shocks, struts, motormounts(when 944 mounts go, they do
>bad things), bushings, bearings, etc - thing is, VWs are cheap, because
>they're econoboxes made for the masses(we're talking about Sciroccos and
>944s, right?), Porsches are ungodly expensive because they say Porsche.
>Right or wrong, _that's the way it is_, and those that buy and _can afford_
>a 944(not just the purchase price, mind you - they're like dogs, you have
>to get the rabies shot(license plate?), feed it(gas, oil and timing belts),
>and bring it to the vet(maintain it).  Porsches and most other high end
>German cars don't seem to sit well with the "replace it after it breaks"
>philosophy.  If your 944 tears a fuel line because the motormount wore out,
>Porsche is likely to tell you that you should have replaced the motormount
>before it broke.  No kidding, right?  Well, they're _not_ kidding.
>Porsches are designed to be maintained - fix before it breaks, and you
>won't have too many problems with the cars.  The 924/944 owners I know have
>had good luck, but they're all the types to pay a premium for a car from a
>clubmember, knowing it has been taken care of.  One guy I know just
>recently picked up a 924S for $8500 - huh?  Well, the guy selling it knew
>what it was(the S, which is the 944 drivetrain in a 924 shell, plus the
>good suspension), and had taken care of it.  The new owner of the car has
>had no problems to speak of, and he's not just going to drive it into the
>ground and whine when it breaks.
>
>That page irritated me.  There are shitboxes at all price points - a
>Scirocco that costs $500 is not expected to do the right thing, and a cheap
>944 is not expected drive reliably without a little TLC.  Seems to me that
>a LOT more young people see "Porsche" followed by a number they can afford,
>buy it for the keychain, and take a bath, because they can't afford to keep
>the car up.

Your absolutely on the mark here. That about sums it up. In my autotrader 
there are about twenty 944's per issue. I'll bet most of these machines 
are not club members cars and have been owned by the "the drive it till 
it breaks" set. You can get a 944 for 6,000 or 12,000 bucks-so whats some 
poor kid going to do? Buy the $6,000 one then be eaten alive by 10 years 
worth of retroactive maintenance. The lemon page is probably the gripe 
page for these sweaty masses.If you're mechanically inclined and get 
pleasure out of digging into the guts of a car and accept the fact that 
it's _normal_ to lay out serious cash every year to maintain a porsche 
then you'll be happy with it. Nine out ten people will consider that 
philosophy insane, but that tenth person would never be comfortable with 
the "only thing I've put in it for the past 5 years is gas and oil" 
mentality.
I remember a 16V scirocco I had that continuous problems- every week it 
seemed. Started to resent it, especially seeing how bombproof my friends 
american cars were and how cheap to fix they were. Somewhere along the 
way I read a piece on the evolution of the scirocco. the article ends 
something like: "these 16V are truly remarkable cars but be aware that 
they are highly complex and interdependent and require continual and 
regular tuning and maintenance...." For some reason that statement struck 
a chord and my attitude changed- I was willing to put the time, money 
into it. After a while when the last of the problems were chased out, it 
was a totally different driving experience. You look forward to long 
driving trips, even tho friends still think the whole thing is 
absurd-like owning a Mac- a "waste of money".    

>Ever read the newsgroup?  People complaining all the damned time about
>their cars, especially the new ones....A3s and such.  And y'know what?  I
>can remember a friend's father complaining bitterly about his 85 GTI when
>it was new - some things never change, new cars have teething problems, old
>cars need fixing.  We don't complain because VWs are easy to fix and cheap,
>and once sorted, the VW will run a while.  Once sorted, a 944 will be
>reliable, but these morons buying "renouned(as I said, morons)" quality
>seem to think that the 944 should never break.  Read the one about an idle
>stabilizer dying?  Sound familiar?  Heh.
>I'll agree that they're not the most reliable vehicles on the planet, but I
>think it has gotten blown out of proportion by a strange melding of two
>mentalities in car ownership - the car which defines "Maintenance" is
>within reach of those of us who break first, fix later.
 "...or any VW for that matter." Doh! 
I've seen mostly A3 griping-alot of owners seem convinced that the whole 
Mexico/Brazil manufacturing move by VW is the culprit. I havent seen that 
volume of bitching over the German Corrados or Cabrios. Better stock 
performance means beefed up everything which equals money. Someone should 
mathematically plot the relationship " every one tenth second shaved off 
a 0-60 mph run will cost you X dollars in normal yearly maintenance" and 
post it on page one of the auto-trader. Sometimes you wonder to what end 
this A1, A2, A3....A30 so-called progress will take us- I'm sure the law 
of diminishing returns is operating quite well in 1997 VWs. The 16V is 
ten years old now and its still a great car-imagine if they continued to 
pump these out with a slower pace of improvements-like the bug. I bet it 
would be a wildly popular, a poor man's 911. 
In the long run, I suppose the difference is that with a VW regular 
maintenance is a survivable prospect for the median paycheck. Design 
flaws are real things and any manufacturer is loathe to fess up on 
them-something that really ticks me off. Remember Minivan hatch latches? 
What is the compelling performance advantage of putting an air intake in 
the fender well of the porsche? You may drive through  standing water 
many times but that one time  the right vortex of water curls around and 
you suck in a pint of water. A fatal prospect. Even though it's such a 
minor mod to make that prospect impossible, when the damage is so severe 
for so many, porsche will stonewall to the bitter end. When the first 
question Porsche asks you after you bring in a blown engine is "did you 
drive through water...?", its probably more than moron/owners at work 
here.  The battery acid eating through the fender well is a bit 
different-if you open your hood every six months and don't see your 
battery oozing acid and eating your engine compartment, you've _earned_ 
that little lake in your passenger side footwell.
IMHO the scirocco's design flaw has got to be its catalytic downtube. 
Lets meld one of the most expensive components to the one component which 
experiences the greatest heat, pressure and torque to save 20 bucks on 
manufacturing. The flex joint cracks, or you need a new cat to pass an 
emmissions test-either way you are out serious $$$ for the want of a 
simple bolt on flange like the GTI setup. In Canada VW wanted $1700.00 
for a replacement.Techtonics wants $400.00. The fact that an aftermarket 
"flex tube repair kit" even exists attests to its bogus design which 
should never have been. Normal upkeep is a different matter. Its like 
designing a one piece "integrated rim/tire."   

 The folks I know who own VWs are mostly unfazed by "fill it and forget 
it" Honda/Toyota thing. There's something soul-less about J-cars I can't 
quite put my finger on. Maybe its the longevity of the design of VWs that 
makes them understandable and serviceable and more apt to be cared for..

Greg 

"all opinions are stated as fact" 
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