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ATTN:: who wants to JUDGE Sciroccos at Waterfest?
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Dave and Josh,
It was indeed not Jan Folkson who suggested that last year, but=20
me. The argument I gave for the self-judging procedure is that we all know=
=20
our cars (the positives and (believe me) the negatives) better than anyone=
=20
else... and we would be a much fairer group of judges than "independent"=20
people who can't keep track of entrant numbers and who don't know the first=
=20
thing about these cars.
I stated then, as I still believe, that those of us who enter our=
=20
cars at Waterfest are a group of friends. There is no bitchiness amognst=20
the group that "my car is better than yours"... absolutely not. Me pulling=
=20
up with a near-showroom condition car and getting 4 points out of 15 for=20
interior quality would have never happened if the Scirocco group themselves=
=20
were judging any of our cars.
I also firmly believe that the *actual* results wouldn't be much=20
different if we judged the category ourselves... but we'd have a much lower=
=20
chance of confusing a Flash Silver Mk2 16V with a Banana-Yellow=20
Mk1. (Sorry, Jay :)
I can't say for sure what any of your motives are for bringing=20
your cars to the show, but in my case, I go to the show to hang out with my=
=20
friends. I bring my car because it's (a) an excuse to make sure it's=20
perfect at least once a year, and more importantly (b) it's nice to have=20
someone walk over to you and compliment you -- it's nice that someone=20
appreciates all the work that we do on our cars... which most of the=20
general public ignores.
So do I care if I don't get a trophy? Nah, not really. It's nice=
=20
for the notoriety -- and (as I learned a year ago), it sure as hell helps=20
when fighting with an insurance company about the value of your car. Apart=
=20
from that? It's useless. I am entering the car again this year, this time=
=20
in the Modified Class; where I know barring any unfortunate event to=20
several others on this list, I have no chance of placing. I enter anyway=20
knowing that no matter how much work I do, Brett will beat me. It's not a=
=20
competition in my mind; it's nice to know how independent people judge all=
=20
of our cars -- what works, what doesn't -- and what I missed because I've=20
been looking at the car too long and have lost my objectivity.
But I'm not going to break my ass cleaning the car up again this=20
year to have someone give me 2 points for Exterior Quality. I'd rather not=
=20
come at all if my car won't even be judged fairly.
Dave, if you'd like to talk to me directly, please don't hesitate=
=20
to contact me off-list. I'll be glad to give you my phone number and offer=
=20
any suggestions on how we can make this a better show for everyone this=
year.
Thanks,
Jason
----------
1987 Scirocco 2.0 16v
1994 Golf 4dr VR6
http://www.scirocco16v.org
"In the olden days, a good flame war could go on for weeks or months, with=
=20
hot invective flying around like rhetorical shrapnel. It was high art, high=
=20
entertainment. Though tempers flared hot and professional bridges were=20
sometimes irreparably burned, ultimately it was a game =97 a participatory=
=20
sport in which the audience awarded points for felicitous disparagements,=20
particularly well-worded putdowns, inspired squelches." -- Christopher=20
Locke, "The Cluetrain Manifesto".
At 02:52 PM 4/22/2002, Josh Able wrote:
>You are correct.
>
>But the total lack of real interest in improving the judging is pretty sad.
>
>Here is a copy/paste from the guy in charge off the judging this year for
>WF.
>
>"Josh,
>
>At the end of last year's Waterfest there was a thought that the Scirocco
>entrants wanted to judge themselves. Do you think this would still fly?
>There
>were 24 cars entered, and as we know, not all of them were there. If you,=
or
>someone else, wants to float this idea I may be able to sell it. Below is a
>list of those who entered cars last year. The judging criteria would be the
>same as for the rest of the show. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd would have to be=
awarded
>in stock and modified. One representative would have to come forward to be
>responsible for getting the forms from me and getting the results back to
>me.
>As many as you could gather should go through the training session the day
>before.
>
>Thanks in advance for taking the time to read the post and (hopefully)=
think
>about it. If there is someone alse on this list that you want to forward it
>to, please do. If you want to post it to Scirocco.org feel free. I'm just
>picking you out because you were the first .org post I saw this morning on
>the mailing list that was there last year.
>
>Again, thanks.
>
>Dave Zaslow
>"
>
>"What had been discussed, as we were correcting the "results" from last
>year's judges, was that the Group, en masse, would judge each others cars
>and decide the winners. Can you visualize 20 people debating the merits of
>each car to decide a ranking? Should a guide be elected from within the
>group and lead everyone through the process? Can this be done in 2 hours?
>Can this be done without fistfights or personal acrimony? Is this what the
>entrants want?
>
>
>I have no horse in this race. I am only following up on an idea I found=
very
>interesting. It could only work in a class where the people are as tight=
and
>knowledgable as the S's seem to be. Perhaps everyone in the group gets a
>judging sheet for all the cars and two S people volunteer to compile the
>results. This would be a jury of ones peers. The alternative is the normal
>process where two independent judges assess the cars based on their own
>judgement, and then deliver that judgement to me, right or wrong.
>
>Interesting problem, no? Want to fling it out there and see what sticks?
>"
>"I would not limit it to .org people. I was thinking that everyone in the
>class would participate in judging each others cars, just not their own=
car.
>
>The problem was a judging sheet for a car that did not show up....someone
>used the wrong sheet to fill out a score....S entrants straightened it out.
>That's where they mentioned the idea of the class judging itself. I believe
>Jan Folkson may have been one of the suggestors. As long as you did not
>judge your own car (I got a perfect score!) it might work. If there is no
>consensus, then we'll just do it the same way as the rest of the show cars;
>I'll assign two independent judges.
>
>Please feel free to encourage the discussion anywhere you want. Let me know
>where it is taking place and I will track it on Vortex or elsewhere (I'm
>already on the .org mailing list). I am only following this up as it was a
>request from the participants and an interesting idea. I am only concerned
>with the objectivity of the group, I don't want Survivor type votes
>pre-arranged to select the finishing order. Unless there are honest
>evaluations, I'd rather do it the old way.
>
>"
>
>Josh Able
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "16V Jason" <jason@scirocco.org>
>To: "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>; "Allyn" <amalventano1@comcast.net>;
>"Daun Yeagley" <vwdaun@yahoo.com>; "Scirocco-Al"
><scirocco-Al@insight.rr.com>; <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
>Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 2:16 PM
>Subject: Re: who wants to JUDGE Sciroccos at Waterfest?
>
>
> > This opportunity is probably a result of what happened to me last
> > year. Long story for those who don't know -- the guy who placed 3rd
>wasn't
> > even there (nor was his car), and I didn't place. A careful
>re-examination
> > of the score cards, the judges realized that they placed everyone
> > wrong. But Jan and Dave (1st and 2nd, respectively, as of the first
> > issuance) had already left, so they couldn't do anything about it... and=
I
> > wound up with a 3rd place.
> >
> > Much better than the year before, where my car didn't place at all
> > (finished like 13 of 17 cars). We have no idea what happened except=
that
> > they apparently confused my car with someone else's.
> >
> > So last year, in a controlled fit of rage, (after the whole Scirocco=
gang
> > admirably stood up to defend me against the evil judges) I insisted that
> > they get judges next year who know what they are doing. I suggested=
that
> > we get the judges from the Scirocco list, and they said they would
>consider
> > it, seeing how that was the 2nd time that they screwed up.
> >
> > I'm glad to hear that they are taking at least the semi-appropriate=
steps
> > to help avoid this problem again. You can, however, be sure that I will
> > have the head judge over at the Scirocco section first thing in the
>morning
> > to ensure that they don't fuck up again. So Brett, sorry, you won't be
> > getting 2 1st place trophies this year. :)
> >
> > Jason
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 09:35 PM 4/20/2002, Josh Able wrote:
> > >thats one of the reasons we might be getting this opratunity to have
> > >scirocco owners judging sciroccos.
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Allyn" <amalventano1@comcast.net>
> > >To: "Daun Yeagley" <vwdaun@yahoo.com>; "Scirocco-Al"
> > ><scirocco-Al@insight.rr.com>; "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>;
> > ><scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> > >Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 9:31 PM
> > >Subject: Re: who wants to JUDGE Sciroccos at Waterfest?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Heck, i'll be happy if they have SOMEONE who knows WHO IS THERE!!!
> > > > That fiasco last year was just plain idiotic.
> > > > Al
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Daun Yeagley" <vwdaun@yahoo.com>
> > > > To: "Scirocco-Al" <scirocco-Al@insight.rr.com>; "Josh Able"
> > ><mkii@nycap.rr.com>;
> > > > <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 9:19 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: who wants to JUDGE Sciroccos at Waterfest?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- Scirocco-Al <scirocco-Al@insight.rr.com> wrote:
> > > > > > If you fly me out...... :)
> > > > >
> > > > > What Al, you can't make the drive from Columbus? Just join
> > > > > the caravan!
> > > > >
> > > > > If it weren't for the fact that I won't have any
> > > > > transportation while I'm in NJ and I'd have to get up
> > > > > EARLY, I'd volunteer to judge. After all, they need
> > > > > SOMEONE who knows something about Sciroccos. Hmmmm.....
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > > > Daun Yeagley - Wilmington Ohio
> > > > > '80 S, 81 S, '82, '85, & '88 Sciroccos
> > > > > '82 Pickup
> > > > > '90 Passat Wagon
> > > > > "Never joke, taunt or dangle what might be seen as a challenge in
>front
> > >of the powers that be.
> > > > The universe is listening." - Lane Wallace
> > > > >
> > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> > > > > http://games.yahoo.com/
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Scirocco-l mailing list
> > > > > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > > > > http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Scirocco-l mailing list
> > >Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > >http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> >
> >
----------
1987 Scirocco 2.0 16v
1994 Golf 4dr VR6
1988 Mercedes 190E Sport 2.0 (Euro-Spec)
http://www.scirocco16v.org
"In the olden days, a good flame war could go on for weeks or months, with=
=20
hot invective flying around like rhetorical shrapnel. It was high art, high=
=20
entertainment. Though tempers flared hot and professional bridges were=20
sometimes irreparably burned, ultimately it was a game =97 a participatory=
=20
sport in which the audience awarded points for felicitous disparagements,=20
particularly well-worded putdowns, inspired squelches." -- Christopher=20
Locke, "The Cluetrain Manifesto".
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<html>
Dave and Josh,<br>
<x-tab> </x-tab>It was
indeed not Jan Folkson who suggested that last year, but me. The
argument I gave for the self-judging procedure is that we all know our
cars (the positives and (believe me) the negatives) better than anyone
else... and we would be a much fairer group of judges than
"independent" people who can't keep track of entrant numbers
and who don't know the first thing about these cars.<br><br>
<x-tab> </x-tab>I stated
then, as I still believe, that those of us who enter our cars at
Waterfest are a group of friends. There is no bitchiness amognst
the group that "my car is better than yours"... absolutely
not. Me pulling up with a near-showroom condition car and getting 4
points out of 15 for interior quality would have never happened if the
Scirocco group themselves were judging any of our cars. <br><br>
<x-tab> </x-tab>I also
firmly believe that the *actual* results wouldn't be much different if we
judged the category ourselves... but we'd have a much lower chance of
confusing a Flash Silver Mk2 16V with a Banana-Yellow Mk1. (Sorry,
Jay :)<br><br>
<x-tab> </x-tab>I can't
say for sure what any of your motives are for bringing your cars to the
show, but in my case, I go to the show to hang out with my friends.
I bring my car because it's (a) an excuse to make sure it's perfect at
least once a year, and more importantly (b) it's nice to have someone
walk over to you and compliment you -- it's nice that someone appreciates
all the work that we do on our cars... which most of the general public
ignores.<br><br>
<x-tab> </x-tab>So do I
care if I don't get a trophy? Nah, not really. It's nice for
the notoriety -- and (as I learned a year ago), it sure as hell helps
when fighting with an insurance company about the value of your
car. Apart from that? It's useless. I am entering the
car again this year, this time in the Modified Class; where I know
barring any unfortunate event to several others on this list, I have no
chance of placing. I enter anyway knowing that no matter how much
work I do, Brett will beat me. It's not a competition in my mind;
it's nice to know how independent people judge all of our cars -- what
works, what doesn't -- and what I missed because I've been looking at the
car too long and have lost my objectivity.<br><br>
<x-tab> </x-tab>But I'm
not going to break my ass cleaning the car up again this year to have
someone give me 2 points for Exterior Quality. I'd rather not come
at all if my car won't even be judged fairly.<br><br>
<x-tab> </x-tab>Dave, if
you'd like to talk to me directly, please don't hesitate to contact me
off-list. I'll be glad to give you my phone number and offer any
suggestions on how we can make this a better show for everyone this
year.<br><br>
Thanks,<br>
Jason<br><br>
<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
<hr>
1987 Scirocco 2.0 16v <br>
1994 Golf 4dr VR6<br><br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.scirocco16v.org/"=
eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.scirocco16v.org</a><br><br>
<br>
"In the olden days, a good flame war could go on for weeks or
months, with hot invective flying around like rhetorical shrapnel. It was
high art, high entertainment. Though tempers flared hot and professional
bridges were sometimes irreparably burned, ultimately it was a game =97 a
participatory sport in which the audience awarded points for felicitous
disparagements, particularly well-worded putdowns, inspired
squelches." -- Christopher Locke, "The Cluetrain
Manifesto".<br><br>
<br><br>
<br><br>
<br><br>
<br>
At 02:52 PM 4/22/2002, Josh Able wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite>You are correct.<br><br>
But the total lack of real interest in improving the judging is pretty
sad.<br><br>
Here is a copy/paste from the guy in charge off the judging this year
for<br>
WF.<br><br>
"Josh,<br><br>
At the end of last year's Waterfest there was a thought that the
Scirocco<br>
entrants wanted to judge themselves. Do you think this would still
fly?<br>
There<br>
were 24 cars entered, and as we know, not all of them were there. If you,
or<br>
someone else, wants to float this idea I may be able to sell it. Below is
a<br>
list of those who entered cars last year. The judging criteria would be
the<br>
same as for the rest of the show. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd would have to be
awarded<br>
in stock and modified. One representative would have to come forward to
be<br>
responsible for getting the forms from me and getting the results back
to<br>
me.<br>
As many as you could gather should go through the training session the
day<br>
before.<br><br>
Thanks in advance for taking the time to read the post and (hopefully)
think<br>
about it. If there is someone alse on this list that you want to forward
it<br>
to, please do. If you want to post it to Scirocco.org feel free. I'm
just<br>
picking you out because you were the first .org post I saw this morning
on<br>
the mailing list that was there last year.<br><br>
Again, thanks.<br><br>
Dave Zaslow<br>
"<br><br>
"What had been discussed, as we were correcting the
"results" from last<br>
year's judges, was that the Group, en masse, would judge each others
cars<br>
and decide the winners. Can you visualize 20 people debating the merits
of<br>
each car to decide a ranking? Should a guide be elected from within
the<br>
group and lead everyone through the process? Can this be done in 2
hours?<br>
Can this be done without fistfights or personal acrimony? Is this what
the<br>
entrants want?<br><br>
<br>
I have no horse in this race. I am only following up on an idea I found
very<br>
interesting. It could only work in a class where the people are as tight
and<br>
knowledgable as the S's seem to be. Perhaps everyone in the group
gets a<br>
judging sheet for all the cars and two S people volunteer to compile
the<br>
results. This would be a jury of ones peers. The alternative is the
normal<br>
process where two independent judges assess the cars based on their
own<br>
judgement, and then deliver that judgement to me, right or
wrong.<br><br>
Interesting problem, no? Want to fling it out there and see what
sticks?<br>
"<br>
"I would not limit it to .org people. I was thinking that everyone
in the<br>
class would participate in judging each others cars, just not their own
car.<br><br>
The problem was a judging sheet for a car that did not show
up....someone<br>
used the wrong sheet to fill out a score....S entrants straightened it
out.<br>
That's where they mentioned the idea of the class judging itself. I
believe<br>
Jan Folkson may have been one of the suggestors. As long as you did
not<br>
judge your own car (I got a perfect score!) it might work. If there is
no<br>
consensus, then we'll just do it the same way as the rest of the show
cars;<br>
I'll assign two independent judges.<br><br>
Please feel free to encourage the discussion anywhere you want. Let me
know<br>
where it is taking place and I will track it on Vortex or elsewhere
(I'm<br>
already on the .org mailing list). I am only following this up as it was
a<br>
request from the participants and an interesting idea. I am only
concerned<br>
with the objectivity of the group, I don't want Survivor type
votes<br>
pre-arranged to select the finishing order. Unless there are honest<br>
evaluations, I'd rather do it the old way.<br><br>
"<br><br>
Josh Able<br><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "16V Jason" <jason@scirocco.org><br>
To: "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>; "Allyn"
<amalventano1@comcast.net>;<br>
"Daun Yeagley" <vwdaun@yahoo.com>;
"Scirocco-Al"<br>
<scirocco-Al@insight.rr.com>; <scirocco-l@scirocco.org><br>
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 2:16 PM<br>
Subject: Re: who wants to JUDGE Sciroccos at Waterfest?<br><br>
<br>
> This opportunity is probably a result of what happened to me
last<br>
> year. Long story for those who don't know -- the guy who
placed 3rd<br>
wasn't<br>
> even there (nor was his car), and I didn't place. A
careful<br>
re-examination<br>
> of the score cards, the judges realized that they placed
everyone<br>
> wrong. But Jan and Dave (1st and 2nd, respectively, as of the
first<br>
> issuance) had already left, so they couldn't do anything about it...
and I<br>
> wound up with a 3rd place.<br>
><br>
> Much better than the year before, where my car didn't place at
all<br>
> (finished like 13 of 17 cars). We have no idea what happened
except that<br>
> they apparently confused my car with someone else's.<br>
><br>
> So last year, in a controlled fit of rage, (after the whole Scirocco
gang<br>
> admirably stood up to defend me against the evil judges) I insisted
that<br>
> they get judges next year who know what they are doing. I
suggested that<br>
> we get the judges from the Scirocco list, and they said they
would<br>
consider<br>
> it, seeing how that was the 2nd time that they screwed up.<br>
><br>
> I'm glad to hear that they are taking at least the semi-appropriate
steps<br>
> to help avoid this problem again. You can, however, be sure
that I will<br>
> have the head judge over at the Scirocco section first thing in
the<br>
morning<br>
> to ensure that they don't fuck up again. So Brett, sorry, you
won't be<br>
> getting 2 1st place trophies this year. :)<br>
><br>
> Jason<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> At 09:35 PM 4/20/2002, Josh Able wrote:<br>
> >thats one of the reasons we might be getting this opratunity to
have<br>
> >scirocco owners judging sciroccos.<br>
> ><br>
> >----- Original Message -----<br>
> >From: "Allyn" <amalventano1@comcast.net><br>
> >To: "Daun Yeagley" <vwdaun@yahoo.com>;
"Scirocco-Al"<br>
> ><scirocco-Al@insight.rr.com>; "Josh Able"
<mkii@nycap.rr.com>;<br>
> ><scirocco-l@scirocco.org><br>
> >Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 9:31 PM<br>
> >Subject: Re: who wants to JUDGE Sciroccos at Waterfest?<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > > Heck, i'll be happy if they have SOMEONE who knows WHO IS
THERE!!!<br>
> > > That fiasco last year was just plain idiotic.<br>
> > > Al<br>
> > ><br>
> > > ----- Original Message -----<br>
> > > From: "Daun Yeagley"
<vwdaun@yahoo.com><br>
> > > To: "Scirocco-Al"
<scirocco-Al@insight.rr.com>; "Josh Able"<br>
> ><mkii@nycap.rr.com>;<br>
> > > <scirocco-l@scirocco.org><br>
> > > Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 9:19 PM<br>
> > > Subject: Re: who wants to JUDGE Sciroccos at
Waterfest?<br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > --- Scirocco-Al <scirocco-Al@insight.rr.com>
wrote:<br>
> > > > > If you fly me out...... :)<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > What Al, you can't make the drive from
Columbus? Just join<br>
> > > > the caravan!<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > If it weren't for the fact that I won't have=20
any<br>
> > > > transportation while I'm in NJ and I'd have to get
up<br>
> > > > EARLY, I'd volunteer to judge. After all, they
need<br>
> > > > SOMEONE who knows something about Sciroccos.
Hmmmm.....<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
> > > > Daun Yeagley - Wilmington Ohio<br>
> > > > '80 S, 81 S, '82, '85, & '88 Sciroccos<br>
> > > > '82 Pickup<br>
> > > > '90 Passat Wagon<br>
> > > > "Never joke, taunt or dangle what might be seen
as a challenge in<br>
front<br>
> >of the powers that be.<br>
> > > The universe is listening." - Lane Wallace<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > >
__________________________________________________<br>
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?<br>
> > > > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and
more<br>
> > > >
<a href=3D"http://games.yahoo.com/"=
eudora=3D"autourl">http://games.yahoo.com/</a><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > _______________________________________________<br>
> > > > Scirocco-l mailing list<br>
> > > > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org<br>
> > > >
<a href=3D"http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l"=
eudora=3D"autourl">http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l</a><br>
> > ><br>
> > ><br>
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<hr>
1987 Scirocco 2.0 16v <br>
1994 Golf 4dr VR6<br>
1988 Mercedes 190E Sport 2.0 (Euro-Spec)<br><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.scirocco16v.org/"=
eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.scirocco16v.org</a><br><br>
<br>
"In the olden days, a good flame war could go on for weeks or
months, with hot invective flying around like rhetorical shrapnel. It was
high art, high entertainment. Though tempers flared hot and professional
bridges were sometimes irreparably burned, ultimately it was a game =97 a
participatory sport in which the audience awarded points for felicitous
disparagements, particularly well-worded putdowns, inspired
squelches." -- Christopher Locke, "The Cluetrain
Manifesto".</html>
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