Re: suspension pros & cons

["Randy B" <sirocco@telocity.com>]

Ok Shawn this is where I would disagree.
I am not an engineer and don't totally understand how the geometry works
with suspension travel but...
If you lower the car so that the control arms (A-arms) are no longer
parallel with the ground you will end up with severe bump steer. (I know
this from experimentation).
This will happen (the way I understand it) regardless of what type of
strut/shock/spring/coilover setup you have.
My understanding is that if you want to go REAL low for performance (not
looks) you must find a way to keep the control arms parallel. (custom wheel
bearing housings)
I KNOW you understand this better than I so you should be able to describe
why this is true and how this works.
Help me (and others) see the light :)

Randy
81 Scirocco - "Mars" (Neuspeed Linear Race springs with Koni Adjustables -
A-arms parallel to the ground and no bump steer)


>
> On Sat, 24 Nov 2001 22:12:42 -0500 "Brian Haygood" <Scirious@hotmail.com>
> writes:
> >I'll pretty much just chip in with others here, but I'd like to try
> >and take
> >a little bit of the opinion out of it, and sub-in some enginerd speak.
> >
> >What makes for bad handling with a car that has been lowered too much:
> >-can't get the alignment in spec because the adjustments weren't meant
> >to account for that drastic a change
> >-shock/strut bottoms out.
>
>
>
> Well, not true on both counts. This is your opinion and, you can pretty
> much set up a Roc to be on the ground and you wont necessarily have the
> problems you describe. Coilovers can set the car at a 3" drop and you CAN
> (not that its usable. Just for the point of my reply.)  still have 4"
> suspension travel. you can compensate for the ride height with high
> spring rates. (keeps it from bottoming out and also makes the suspension
> work better.)
> I would basically agree with your comments in regards to a stock
> strut/spring combo.
>
>
>
> >The range of shock travel doesn't change
> >much with almost any normal suspension modification.
>
>
> Sure it does. Anytime you use a lowering spring, you are in effect
> shortening the spring height which makes the static ride level lower
> which in turn moved the shock rod down in the housing. (like my "run on
> DeLong" sentence? Props Chris!) Using a coilover will eliminate most of
> the rod travel loss of an aftermarket lowering spring. (or worse, cutting
> a spring, GADS.)
>
>
> >As Scott mentioned, big
> >bucks can overcome that, but its hardly practical.
>
>
> Naw. You can get  a kit from GC that's in the $400 range. Use it with
> whatever shocks you want to save big bucks but if your into the
> suspension thing, your already into a set of Bilsteins or Koni's or the
> like. it just depends on what your tax bracket looks like for what you
> want.
>
>
>
> >  Stiff
> >springs
> >are a necessary evil for cars, and certainly makes them feel better and
> >transmits "feel" to the driver and instructions from the driver more
> >quickly, but when it comes right down to it, the springs should only
> >be as stiff as they need be to keep the car from bottoming out.
>
>
>
> I completely disagree here. Completely.
>
>
> >Lower the car 2"
> >and it may be nearly impossible to keep the car "suspended" -even with
> >super stiff springs.  Those stiff springs may feel fine to you, but they
>
> >decrease the ability of the car to keep its weight evenly distributed as
> it
> >travels over bumps and dips.
>
>
> Nope, I again completely disagree here too. I get the feeling that you
> might be speaking from a textbook point of view and not of one having
> experienced driving a Scirocco with a 2" or + drop on stiff springs. I
> invite you to come visit me and drive both my 82 Scirocco (with Group G
> springs 425#F 250#R spings. 2" drop.) and my 84 Scirocco. (with Neuspeed
> Race Springs @ 300#F 175#R springs and 2.5" drop.)
>
> Both cars are not only daily driven cars (my wife drives the 84) but they
> also exhibit great handling on most any surface. We do have a wide
> variety of road surfaces out here in so-cal. Im sure its nothing like
> what all of you 4 seasoners get. Still, id never have a stock
> suspensioned VW again. (my GLi has NS Lowering springs too. LOL!!) Its
> just a drivers preference thing more than cosmetics.
>
>
> >So if all you do is race on smooth tracks and drive on really great
> quality
> >roads, you can probably get away with stiffer springs than those of us
> >who drive in the real world.
>
>
> I dunno. I think this depends on what your definition of "Real World" is.
>
>
>
> >Lowering the Center of Gravity is the point of most attempts to lower
> >a car
> >for performance.  This helps reduce load transfer during turns,
> >acceleration
> >and braking, but if you can't keep your tires on the ground, even the
> >theoretical gains of lower CG don't work.
>
>
> Id say the detriment was more of one that didn't allow the suspension to
> work properly. (shock travel.) that's basically it.
>
>
> > (preference almost never relates to performance, and
> >anyone who tells you that a setup works "for them" though it doesn't
> >for another is at best relating the poor driving skills of himself or
> >someone
> >else)  -so much for reducing the opinion content, huh! -at least note
> >that I
> >don't claim to be on the upper end of the good driving scale - I
> >pretty much suck in fact.
>
>
> Well, ive had alot of different setups on VW's over the years. I fell I
> might be qualified in posting on this thread. Ive been lucky enough to
> have the opportunity to drive alot of different makes and models on a
> track environment. Id love to have the brute force of a Z06 Vette mixed
> in with the brakes of a 911 and the handling of a Ferrari all in a VW.
> (medley of "Super Tramp playing in the background..... Dreamer... nothing
> but a dreamer....! )
> Reality is, most of what you can do with a VW is actually pretty good
> considering how shitty VW's are in the suspension-performance aspects to
> begin with.
>
> Anyways. Not flaming anyone here, just seeing some interesting comments I
> thought id... uh..... comment on. :)
>
>
> Shawn Méze
> 86' Jetta GLi 8V       84' Scirocco 8V           88' Corvette -SS 30-
> 82' Scirocco GTi -FSP 54-     79' "Project FSP Scirocco"
> The Fastest, Quickest, Cleanest and best looking Scirocco(s) in all of
> San Diego!
> http://www.Geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/1308/index.htm
>
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