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RE: Rear Swaybar Differences...WAS: front swaybars vs SHINE
An ideal swaybar should only affect the roll-center of the car, and not the
spring rate. In other words, the swaybar should only affect the suspension when
the rear wheels are not at equal height to the body. Thus, when you encounter an
"even" bump, that causes both rear springs to compress at the same time, the
swaybar should not bind, or exert any force on the suspension.
How do you know if a swaybar binds? Simple. Are the end-links of the swaybar
mounted rigidly to the suspension? If the answer is yes, IT BINDS. This is bad
because it means that changing to a different swaybar (or removing it) will
actually change your spring rate, making precise tuning difficult. On the
street, it probably isn't a huge deal, but if you're trying to tune a coilover
setup for the track, it can be frustrating. My Autotech bar attempts to solve
this by mounting the ends of the swaybar in a sliding poly bushing, and AFAIK,
it seems to work well. I'm not sure how Neuspeed does it.
The Shine bar takes a rather eloquent approach to this by not even dealing with
the issue. The A1 rear suspension is really nothing more than a giant swaybar
with the wheels attached to the ends of it. So, why not just stiffen the
existing swaybar instead of making "another" swaybar? Seems like a good idea to
me. It theoretically should save a little weight, be far more simple/reliable,
and still work just as well if not better. It can not possibly bind or otherwise
interfere with your spring rates. Unless I get a real good deal on something
else, that's what I intend to use on the mk1.
Neal
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-scirocco-l@scirocco.org
[mailto:owner-scirocco-l@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Benjamin Harder
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2001 12:32 AM
To: josh Wyte; scirocco-l@scirocco.org
Subject: Rear Swaybar Differences...WAS: front swaybars vs SHINE
Ok,
After all the talk about swaybar use theory, I have noticed that most
will agree that a large REAR swaybar is good idea, for *most* applications.
I would like to know more about "selecting" a rear bar... I am comparing
the Neuspeed 28mm rear bar to the Shine rear bar. They sound like two very
different designs. The Neuspeed bar attaches to the axle beam where the
factory bar does (at the two middle points) and then the outer mounting
points are at the base of the rear struts. The Shine bar bolts to the
front-portion of the rear axle beam...how I do not quite understand.
I would really like to know which bar would be "more effective".
It sounds like the Shine rear bar attempts to just stiffen the actual
axle beam, while the *other* bars seem to prevent torsion in a different
method. I'm just trying to figure out what the real differences are here.
So, more thoughts?
TIA!
Ben
--- josh Wyte <josh_wyte@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Don't condemn it unless you've tried it.
>
> I've done it all. No front bar, stock front bar and
> larger front bar. All with the largest rear bar I
> could find, which is the Shine rear bar.
>
> First some notes on the Shine rear swaybar. It fit's
> inside the twist beam axle. There are no brackets to
> break or bushings to wear out. It's hollow, but
> really large, like 30+ mm. It works great, but is a
> bit of a PITA to install.
>
> Now onto the front bar controversy...
> It really depends on what you do. The entire point
> Shine is trying to make is that the car understeers
> (pushes) as it sits stock. If you increase *both* the
> front and rear swaybar sizes the car will still push.
> Why do you want to do this for performance driving?
> The answer? You don't!
>
> However, pulling off the front swaybar and running
> without one isn't all that great of an idea for a
> *street* car. Without at least the stock front bar
> the car will appear to roll more and feel kinda wierd.
> The race cars can get away with this because they run
> huge front spring rates.
>
> The stock front swaybar and the large rear bar will do
> several things. First of all you won't spin the
> inside front wheel as much coming out of turns.
> Increased traction= lower lap times and better auto-x
> times. It'll also allow the rear tires to stay more
> planted, more traction=better. You'll also have less
> push and a chance to position the car with the
> throttle and brake, ie controllable oversteer to clip
> apexs.
>
> With a large front swaybar you get alot more push.
> You tie the front wheels together making it easier to
> spin the inside front wheel coming out of a turn. YOu
> hike up the inside rear tire even more coming around
> bends, less traction. You can't control the car with
> the throttle or brake through a turn. The car does
> "feel" better for lower speed street driving tho, as
> it's very flat and you get alot of resistance thru the
> steering wheel when you put the car into a turn.
>
> If you do *any* kind of track driving you *don't* want
> a large front swaybar! While I hope none of you is
> pushing your car hard enough on the street to actually
> discern what I'm talking about, if you do, then you
> also *don't* want a larger front swaybar. Understeer
> is bad!
>
> -josh
>
>
> --- T Berk <tberk@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > At 11:38 AM -0400 6/7/01, Josh[deady]Able wrote:
> > >Ok, I just want to get your views.
> > >Shine claims that no front sway bar, or at the very
> > least only a stock sway
> > >bar should be used in an A1 car.
> > >Personally from my own, and other peoples
> > experiences, think Shine is on
> > >crack.
> > >What are your views?
> > >
> > >Josh Able
> > >87 16v Seidl
> >
> >
> > Because it makes sense in one (some) setting it has
> > become the
> > defining Shine Recommendation.
> >
> > My take: Crack Monsters. Don't feed the habit.
> >
> >
> > TBerk
> > balance is better, in all things
> >
> > --
> > Email LIST problems to:
> > scirocco-l-probs@scirocco.org.
> > To unsubscibe send "unsubscribe scirocco-l" in the
> > message to majordomo@scirocco.org
> >
>
>
> =====
> Josh Wyte
> Momentum Motorsports
> 508-833-3024 After 5 pm EST
>
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