Re: The ABS Poop Rolls on...

[Ben Patterson <bpatterson@stanford.edu>]

Hey there Jason -


>	Second, I do appreciate ABS for general braking applications.
>It works great especially for wet pavement, snow, loose surfaces,
>etc. I've pushed the 97' Accord as hard as it can go and the ABS has
>been great, never failed and probably kept me on the road while doing
>some pretty stupid stuff.

--Hmmm.. strange; you're toting the benefits of ABS on the surfaces that it
--actually _increases_ braking distances, while criticizing it's efficacy on
--the surfaces where it actually works.  That's interesting... :)

What I mean by ABS working well on snow, wet pavement, etc, is that 
the control is better - the wheels don't lock up and you don't lose 
it in a corner. Yes, braking distance is increased, but the car stays 
on the road. If all we are talking about is braking distance then 
you're right - non-ABS works better on those surfaces.

>	When I purchased the 97', I drove the EX model with the ABS
>and the LX model without it for almost 45 minutes each and spent a
>lot of time checking the braking distances under the same driving
>circumstances. (Before you flame me again, keep in mind this is only
>personal experience and it's only with Honda Accords - haven't had
>the chance to drive comparative models of other cars, at least as
>half as hard as I drove these). The ABS helped keep the car under
>better control in high performance situations (hard cornering and
>speeds around 140mph), and it felt really good. I personally like it
>more than non-ABS in terms of driving style, at least on the Hondas.

--Speeds around 140?  Strange, since the EX has a published top speed 
of 129mph.

The 97' Accord EX has no problem doing 140 mph - I routinely make it 
from the SF Bay Area to LA in just over 3 hours with the car at the 
redline and no traffic (plus a damn good radar detector). You 
thinking of the Civic EX?


--#1: I find it hard to believe you're insane enough to be braking hard
--enough on public roads at 140mph (an unattainable speed to begin with in an
--Accord) to lock the wheels, much less to be able to comment on what ABS
--does for stability at those speeds.

I-5 and low level insanity help a lot with this situation. I get the 
97' to at least 120 mph every day on the way to work on Hwy. 280. Pei 
Chung Ting from Cal (87' 16v) knows... heck, I redlined his rocco on 
Hwy 101 going to Cal Poly. And no, I didn't brake hard  enough to 
lock up the wheels at 140 mph. Would you? I did try to brake as hard 
as possible without risking flaming bloody death in the process.

  --The one that comes to mind as the biggest factor is the time between
--reaction and full braking.  If you mash the pedal as hard as you can,
--you'll get to 100% braking immediately with ABS.  But if you're trying to
--threshold brake, it's going to take you anywhere from a 1/2 second on up to
--get that pedal to the sweet spot. It's this exact factor that explains
--Mercedes et al's new "Brake Assist" system, which detects a panic stop,
--even if full braking is not applied, and boosts brake pressure to full
--braking.  My point is, that even though stopping from 20-12 mph (when the
--ABS disengages) might take marginally longer, the benefits of achieving
--full braking instantly while you're still at, say, 60mph, completely and
--without question outweigh the longer braking.  Let's face it, 1/2 second at
--60mph is 44 feet - a lot more distance travelled than an additional 2 feet
--from 20-12 (A stop which probably only takes 15-20 feet anyways).  That is
--the benefit of ABS in the real world.

I agree.

--And, I maintain, you're lucky the ABS _didn't_ let you lock up-- I didn't
--make up those figures from Road & Track-- on a locked-wheel stop from
--60mph, full lockup took 213ft vs 133ft with ABS.  Sure, it wasn't an
--Accord, but I'd be willing to bet serious money that those results are
--applicable to just about any car on the road.  I mean, it's a known fact
--that the coefficient of friction is reduced with a sliding tire...
--resulting in none other than longer braking distances.

But I wasn't DOING 60 mph. And I'll buy the results from the test. 
But under 40 mph when I started braking, and the police report said 
it was 30-35 from the reports taken from people behind me. Who knows. 
But I barely hit the guy (4 inches up the hood). Whatever...


>do it too, but hell, it's not worth the money. If you want ABS that
>bad for the safety, why drive a Scirocco? Next thing ya know there
>will be a thread on airbags... yeesh.

-Eeeh, don't even get me started on Airbags! :)
-I would love to add ABS to my Scirocco.  I won't, of course, because I
-don't have the time...  But the ABS available in the A2 cars (which is what
-I would use) was Bosch Generation I, which, in addition to its reputation
-of not aging gracefully, wasn't a fast acting system to begin with.

Yeah - not worth the $.

>By the way..... switch to decaf dude, before you have an aneurism...heh
heh. =)

-Fuck the coffee, I need a bowl. :)

Heck, with the bowl - I'm still high from the Blue Tack I used to 
vinyl some speaker covers last night. Good stuff.... a few less brain 
cells, but good stuff nonetheless. =)

					Ben Patterson (86' Scirocco 16v)

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