Swaybars was: Autox:TOO much PUSH/understeer!

[Shannon Fenton <sfenton@telegroup.com>]

So as far as legality goes Im still good in ES with a bigger sway bar right?
Autotechs run 115.00 and is 22mm. Not too bad. Where can I get better brackets
since I seem to remember it going around that they broke brackets. And if I get any
type of tie bar Im bumped into CSP? I want to stay in something I can be
potenionally competitive in, I think ES is the way to go if it weren't for a Talon
Turbo that was in there this weekend. I didn't think that was fair.






Thank You for Your Time,
        Shannon Fenton
            Ext. 2712
            sfenton@telegroup.com



- ------------------------------
Date: 8/31/98 7:41 PM
To: Fenton, Shannon
From: I.Mannix

At 06:48 PM 8/31/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Great response. Now for round two.
>Yes I was overdriving the car, this IS my biggest problem. I usaully get
settled on the second and third run. Here they had 2 laps per run...I like
that. 

Was it a smallish(smaller than ours) lot, and you did two laps to maximize
space?  I like courses like that, too, but for me, it gives me twice as
many chances to screw up;).

A "big bar" would consist of what? Stock is 21mm right? 

I think the stock Scirocco bar is 16mm, maybe 19mm for the 16v.  For those
into math and torsion and physics and engineering, all that crap, figure
out the torsional rigidity of a 19mm bar vs, say 22 - the difference is
HUGE, far more than one might think based on 3mm additional material/diameter.

Im not to thirlled on getting the Neuspeed due to its funky heim joint
attachments

I can understand that.  ABD?  Autotech with good brackets?  Addco?  H&H?
Lots of alternatives.  I like the H&H bars; the guy makes some neat stuff.
Borderline greyzone illegal for a Stock car.  Locally, eh, might not
matter, but it is admittedly questionable in SP - IMHO, it is within the
spirit of the SP rules, and anyone who would protest because of it(in SP)
is a whiner, but I can *almost* see which whine-planet they're coming from.
 Stock, well, I'd REALLY do my homework before I showed up at a Tour, Pro
or Nationals with one of those on.  

 and the distress its install seems to give people. From what Ive heard it
dosent make much of a diffrence anyway....if it did everyone would have them.

Everyone does have one, assuming everyone = the fast people;).

Seriously.  It makes a HUGE difference - in stock, you can't do much to
keep the car flat.  Put the biggest bar on the front you can get ahold of,
it'll help preserve camber, thereby increasing grip.  Even on my DSP car,
which is fairly stiffly sprung, a stock swaybar is not enough.  If a stock
bar does not limit roll enough with 500#/in springs, it surely won't with
stock springs(about 120#/in, if I remember correctly).

 As far alignment goes it was aligned about a month ago and Ill take it
again soon. I thought of getting a upper tie bar also. Any advise on which? 

Neuspeed, Eurosport, IMHO, whatever is cheap and has no joints in it.  I am
not a big fan of the Autotech upper bars - with bolts and turnbuckles and
things to create slop.  Splitting hairs, I know, but if you're going to
choose a product, why not use the even marginally better one?  

Also, keep in mind that an upper bar will put you in Street Prepared, CSP,
to be exact(you _do_ have a 16v, right? I think so....).  I know, winning
is unimportant right now, but CSP might get really frustrating, if you are
not prepared to attach a funnel to the roof of the car and start shoveling
your bank account in.  Don't get me wrong, I'm a Street Prepared kind of
guy; I can only think of a handful of stock category cars I'd want to own -
RX7 TT in SS, certain Porsche 911s, maybe an M-series car in AS or SS.
That's not even considering competitiveness(911s are not terribly
competitive in any stock class at this point), just cars I could almost
conceivably stand to leave alone.  Just take some time to think about
whether you can stand losing.  That's what it boils down to.  Can you drive
a car in a class where the car really is the limiting factor?  I can't.
There are things I'd like to do to my GTI, but are illegal in DSP, so I
don't.  I don't like losing, but I really don't like looking at my
competition's cars KNOWING that mine will NEVER go that fast, no matter how
good I become as a driver.  When I started, I was in E Prepared, thanks to
a cam - nice cam, but the cam was pretty limp compared to the Peck's Mazda
RX2, for those in Colorado/been to our events, the LOUD blue Mazda with
plastic windows.  I knew I sucked when I started, but I also knew I
could'nt realistically get my car to go as fast as that thing.  MAYBE with
enough money, a VW could get into the realm of a real EP car, but I can't
afford it(a big chunk of the money going to a trailer/truck).  If I get
beaten by a better driver, fine.  If I get beaten by a better driver in a
better car, fine.  If I can look at my car and say "I will be able to make
my car competitive with so and so's," fine.  If I look at my car and think
to myself "my car will never be as fast as that," I am in the wrong class,
whether I am simply not willing to make my car competitive(the
transformation to a REAL EP car is pretty permanent, a DSP car can be
brought back to stock fairly easily), or I don't have the money, or the car
simply won't be competitive, does not really matter.  It took me a while to
be able to look realistically and objectively at the car/driver combination
and figure out what the limiting factor is.  Most of the time, it is the
driver.  An otherwise stock Scirocco 16v with a stressbar would be pretty
limiting in CSP, however.  It does depend on your region's CSP, but around
here, a stockish CSP Scirocco is not going to cut it(and we don't have a
super-competitive CSP).    

I dont like the idea of drilling holes in the strut tower since it bears
alot of load but I suppose I dont have much choice huh.  

Neuspeed and Eurosport upper stressbars use the bolts on the upper strut
bearing - no drilling, just take nuts off, put bar on, put nuts back on.
Could'nt be easier.  As far as drilling holes, however, don't worry about
it - I've got 4 additional holes drilled per side for my camber plates, the
struts have'nt come through the hood yet;).

Will make my ride stiffer? 

Not appreciably.

Until I can find another DD Id hate to ruin my already bone jarring ride by
making into sadomasocist pleasure moblie. Anyone had any expeirence on
Eurosports lower stress thing, its not a bar.....well maybe Im confusing
sway bars and stress bars. 

Your car(if a S-16v) should already have a lower stressbar - it bolts
between the control arms, and to the body just behind the engine.  A
swaybar attaches to the body at the rearmost control arm pivots and to the
control arms - swaybars are 4' long, roughly, whereas a stressbar is
roughly 18" wide.  Eurosport's stressbar is fine, although you should'nt
need it.


>Lastly am I going to have any problem running 50psi in Street tires on the
track? I want to avoid a blowout if at all possible.

Not for autocross.  I know people who routinely put 50+ in their tires.
You probably don't want to do it on the street- more for ride and wear than
anything else, as those pressures will wear the center of the tire before
the edges, but it is not inherently bad.  Do the shoepolish trick -
shoepolish from the edge of the tread onto the sidewall on the front tires,
and see how far it is wearing between runs.  If the shoepolish disappears
on the sidewall, add air.  If the tire is not rolling to the edge of the
tread, take 2-3psi out.  Find out how much pressure the front tires seem to
like, then adjust the rear(higher or lower) until the car behaves nicely.
Find the "optimum" front pressure, then futz with the rear until the car
does what you want it to.  Try things - probably above 30, less than 60,
experiment until it handles "right."  Then drive it. After you drive it for
a while, if you feel that changes need made, try something else - if you
are constantly changing the car, it is hard to get used to one setup, hard
to develop a feel for what the car is doing.  Front pressures are more
critical.  Let's say the fronts grip best at 40 - try 30 or 50 in the rear,
see what happens.  Say you go to 30 rear, and the car is oversteering
badly.  Add a few PSI.  Keep experimenting until you find something you
like, then stick with it until you KNOW your pressures are wrong.  People
might tell you your pressures are wrong - think about where they are coming
from.  Do they use the same tires you do?  If so, maybe they're onto
something.  If a BFG user tells you they're too high, keep in mind that
BFGs use less air than most.  Try things, learn for yourself what different
pressures do, but don't be afraid of 50psi for autocross use!  It might be
too much, but it is not dangerous(whereas super low pressures might be; if
the tire rolls enough to get the rim into the ground, you _could_ do bad
things).  Good luck!


I.Mannix


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