Re: [to everyone] how low r u?

[Iain Mannix <mannix@privateI.com>]

At 8:58 PM -0800 12/27/1997, the mad bastard wrote:

>	This is a topic that I have brought up before and I still have all
>answers posted saved in my c:\scirocco\suspension folder.  My ultimate
>goal is to acquire some top o' the line coilovers so's I can raise and
>lower the car as the need shows itself.  Unfortunately, I will not be
>able to come up with the cash necessary for such a frivolty during this
>millenium.

It is really not that much more money - none of this Avo crap, that's
overpriced.  Ground Control sells a functional coilover conversion for $395
including springs(4 perches/hats/springs), plus you'd need about $50 in
labor to get the collars welded on.  $200 more than Neuspeed "Race"
springs, give or take.   This would give you the "stiff" ride you
want(depending on spring rate), but honestly, adjusting ride height is not
_that_ easy, IMHO, too much work to "raise and lower" as dictated.  Grit
gets into the threads, you have to take wheels off, eh, not that hard, but
more work than I am willing to do.  I just set it and leave it.  I was
leery of the GC stuff(FWIW, Eurosport's coilover kit appears to be a Ground
Control product, although no credit is given) due to their reputation
around here, but I must say that I am pleased with the stuff I have from
them.  Seems to work fine, springs stay on the car, shrug, guess it
could'nt be too bad - how much "better" can you make a spring perch work?
Anyhow.

Therefore, I am going to settle for second best.  From all
>of the posts and peoples I have talk ed to, it looks like I'll be going
>for a set of Koni adjustables (too bad they only adjust rear height...)
>and probably some H&R race springs.  I want a _STIFF_ ride.  More
>specifically, I want a __LOW__ _STIFF_ ride.

Get Bilsteins if you want stiff.  Heh.  Did I say that?  The Konis, in my
experience, ride better than Bilsteins.  Something to do with construction.
Bilstein cars I have spent time in (aside from my own, which used to have
them) have been harsh - over small bumps, they're harsher, big bumps they
are fine.  Bottoming a Bilstein is painful, and the internal bumpstop must
be a foot long.  With stock springs, they're OK - Kevin's Corrado G60 has
Bilsteins, it is firm but OK.  So does a Toyota I've been in - firm, not
quite harsh, but not as plush as the Koni.  My old Bilsteins turned out to
be the cause of the harshness in my car - I thought it was the Neuspeed
Race springs, but it was the shocks.  Performance wise, they're awesome -
had they offered an adjustable when I bought shocks last, I would have
gotten another set.  I wanted adjustment, got Konis, wow, what a nice
surprise - smoother and adjustable damping.  Anyhow.  I had Neuspeed Race
springs(same as H&R if I am not mistaken), and I would not call them stiff,
personally.  Not soft, but not all that stiff, really.  Just put them into
a friend's car - still filthy, yuk, and the car rode better.  He had these
MONSTROUS bumpstops in the front of his car - 4" long - eeekk!  Cut them in
half, then a bit more, put the Nspeed springs in, lower, better ride(he has
Konis).  Not a bad combo - the combination of cut springs in the front and
the bumpstops from hell, the car rode like crap - it probably had less than
an inch of travel, and the cut springs(barely cut) were 1/2" taller than
the Nspeeds.  Anyhow.  He lowered the car more and gained 1-1.5" travel.
Win win.  Heh, built a lower stressbar while we were at it, now it scrapes
the driveway.  Oops.  Little too much clearance below the transmission, but
it was cheap.
>
>	And so comes my question.  How low is everyones' Rocco?  I'll be
>sporting some BBS 15" with 195-50-15s (I don't know the offset...how can
>I find out?)  I'd love to drop her 2.25".  Anyone gone this low without
>shredding their tires or demoing their skirts? (I got a 16V)

I have a Rabbit GTI.  Nspeed "race" springs lower about 1-1.5", are 300# at
the end of their travel.  With those, and 15x6" wheels/205/50-15 Dunlumpy
D40M2s, I had to flare the fenders a bit all the way around.  Those wheels
went to a friend of mine in Colorado, then onto his wife's Scirocco 16v -
Darrell?  How'd they fit?  Was that car lowered?  2.25" lowering is a LOT.
Too much, if you ask me.  I don't want to get into it right now, but there
is a point at which the car will roll _more_ given the same spring rate.
The lower it goes, the more spring you need, at non-linear rates - 1.5" is
borderline.  It all has to do with control arms and mathematical crap which
Kevin will ASCII into existance for us, right?  Cool.  Kevin's car is below
that magical height by a little, and it works OK with 350# front springs.
I can explain more if you want, but basically - I believe 2.25 is too much
from a performance standpoint, especially keeping in mind that the 16v is
pretty low to begin with.  Might look neato, but without shortened strut
housings/inserts and STIFF springs, I belive the car will roll too much.
The cars have little suspension travel to deal with, too.  If you want to
do it for looks, great - but with as low as the 16v is to begin with, I'd
bet you'd wind up with an ill-handling car.  IMHO, could be wrong.  Depends
on the control arms - if they are parallel to the ground, the car is at the
theoretical lowest optimum limit.  If the c-arms are pointed up to the
wheels, the car is beyond that theoretical optimum level, and will actually
lean more if you don't change the spring rates(stiffer).  Kevin's car is a
bit(1/4-1/2" I'd guess) "low" and it works.  My car, with lowering springs
& Bilstein BTS struts was LOW - c-arms pointed distinctly up to the wheels
- it did not lean much, but in retrospect, I'd guess it was sitting firmly
on the bumpstops.  Cool.  Not so speedy.  If rules don't matter to you, you
could fabricate some sort of ball joint to retain a good control arm angle,
use an MR2 strut(rear, I believe) and get really low, without engaging the
evil rollcenter monster and retaining a bit of travel, but that'd cost
money.  To sum up for the fourth time(have a backache, can't type, but got
comfortable, so I'm starting to blather again), there _is_ such thing as
too low.  Ever wonder why the Neuspeed "Race" springs don't lower the car
as much as "Lowering" springs?  The Neuspeed people know what's going on -
they're not stupid.  They do seemingly intend for the Race springs to be
used on competition based cars - I get the impression they sell far more
lowering springs than "Race," but fortunately, the Race springs exist - if
the extra $200 for coilovers is simply _not_ an option, the Race springs
are not bad.  They have their problems, but not terrible.  You can also cut
coils safely off the bottom - they have about 9 dead coils on the lower
half - if you want to lower it more(not what I'd do) it is a safe, viable
option at the expense of travel.

If you get Konis, get their bumpstops, too - they're cheap, and are pretty
short.  I don't know where my friend got his long bumpstops, hell, he
barely needed a spring, but even the stock ones are too long, once the car
is lowered.  You can cut them down(the stock ones), but IMHO, spending the
extra cash, about $15-20, for the Koni stops is wise - if the shock blows
itself up, you can tell them you were using their own stops(AFAIK, shock
failure due to insufficent bumpstops is not a warranty item), and they
should replace the shock(or fix it).  I still get nervous when dealing with
bumpstops/cutting them - if you cut just a little too much, bam, the foot
valve gets crubbished, no more shock.  Bad.  Stock bumpstops in a lowered
car leave you with little travel - the reason I got rid of the Neuspeed
Race springs was because the bumpstops(trimmed stock ones) were too long,
and the car was leaning onto them.  Anyhow, that's my take on the subject -
you'll have to be very careful to use enough bumpstop to keep from damaging
the shock if you lower it that much.  Or, just use long stops, your ride
will be stiff:).



I.Mannix


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