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Need some help with a cis 8v
Responses within...
Quoting Brian McGarvey <brianm@earendel.org>:
>
> David,
>
> You need to look again at your own quote..
> There is a FPR, CPR, (DPR on CIS-E), and an accumulator in the cars.
>
There is a Control Pressure Regulator, which is what I personally described,
but the FI book does not list, nor can I remember where there is regulator...
Where is this item, and what does it look like?
> In the early CIS car the FPR is actually BUILT INTO the fuel distributor
> at the OUTPUT port of the fuel distributor. so it kind of goes like this
>
> fuel tank (xfer pump some cars) fuel pump --> accumulator --> CIS
> dist(including CPR) --> Fuel Pressure Regulator --> fuel tank.
>
So, the fuel pressure regulator is on the return circuit? If I understand
what you wrote above, then that is what I am reading... It may be true, but
since I have gotten this wrong, I want to get it right... LMK where I am
off...
> dont believe me belive your own quote...
>
> Notice the BOSCH book lists it in just that order too...
>
>
> In the later model cars the FPR is actually mounted on the outside of the
> CIS-E distributor.
>
Here, what you are calling the FPR, is the differential pressure regulator, or
the control pressure regulator on the earlier cars... Perhaps I am splitting
hairs here, but the terminology can be confusing on these FI systems...
Perhaps this is the source of Allyns' and my consternation?
Cheers,
David
> On Tue, 13 Apr 2004, David Utley wrote:
>
> > --Bosch Fuel Injection & Engine Management, By Charles Probst, SAE...
> >
> > Continuous Injection-Theory, pg 11
> >
> > " In continuous systemes control of fuel pressure is extrememly important,
>
> > even more so than in pusled systems. As you'll see, fuel pressure opens
> the
> > fuel injectors, and the control systems manipulate fuel pressure to alter
> the
> > basic air-fuel mixture when compensating for differeent operating
> > conditions. It's vital that the fuel system not only supply adequate fuel
> for
> > the amount of air the engine is using, but also that the fuel be under
> > pressure, maintained and controlled within a narrow range.
> >
> > " The fuel system includes the fuel tanks to store the fuel, the electric
>
> > pump to pressurize the fuel, a
> the fuel accumulator to damp pressure sugres in the system,
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> the filter, the fuel distributor to meter and distribute the fuel,
>
> > the pressure regulator to maintain primary system pressure,
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> and the injectors
> > to atomize the fuel..."
> >
> > Allyn,
> > I quote this so that perhaps I can skip some of the dialogue back and
> forth
> > and we both get to the meat of this topic... What you are calling the fuel
>
> > pressure regulator is in fact the accumulator. It is right next to the
> pump.
> > Its' job is to "damp fuel-pressure surges and to hold residual pressure in
> the
> > system when the engine is shut off." The "System-pressure regulator" is
> the
> > item that hangs off the fuel distributor... On the low-compression
> engines,
> > it is bolted to the distributor (which is black in color) by means of a
> clamp,
> > and it has a distinct fuel line to and from it, with a two-connection plug
>
> > connected to it. On the high-comp. engines, is is bolted directly to the
> fuel
> > distributor (which in this case is machined aluminum), has no lines to it,
> and
> > has IIRC a two-connection plug also... Pg. 13, "The system-pressure
> regulator
> > maintains system pressure (sometimes called preimary pressure) in the fuel
>
> > system at the specified level." It goes on to explain the two types, which
> I
> > have already done...
> >
> > Hopefully this clears up some of the confusion about these two items and
> their
> > function...
> >
> > Cheers,
> > David
> > Quoting Allyn <amalventano@sc.rr.com>:
> >
> > > cis _does_ have a fpr, a 5 bar one, its mounted up front next to the fuel
>
> > > distributor.
> > > something has to regulate pressure at 75 psi, ya know...
> > > Al
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "David Utley" <mr.utility@highstream.net>
> > > To: "Calimus" <calimus@techography.net>
> > > Cc: "Allyn" <amalventano@sc.rr.com>; "Scirocco-l"
> <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> > > Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 6:01 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Need some help with a cis 8v
> > >
> > >
> > > > Digifant would have a fuel rail, but CIS will not. Also, not to split
>
> > > > hairs
> > > > here, but CIS does not have a FPR per-se, they do have an accumulator,
>
> > > > that
> > > > will not be your problem unless it is near completely clogged with
> > > > something... I think your trouble is either a grounding problem, or
> the
> > > > ECU... I think it unlikely to be your fuel dist., unless one cylinder
> is
> > > > not
> > > > firing at all until, but that should be all the time, and not have
> > > > anything to
> > > > do with the fuel dist....
> > > >
> > > > William, if you get that book I mentioned, you will figure it out, I
> > > > guarantee
> > > > you...
> > > >
> > > > David Utley
> > > >
> > > > Quoting Calimus <calimus@techography.net>:
> > > >
> > > >> Hrm, I realized that I left something out. The engine I'm refering
> to
> > > >> is/was a cis engine as well. Basicly I transplanted the 8v from the
> > > >> wifes old 89' cabby to the new 89' cabby.
> > > >>
> > > >> The fpr pretty much is my next stop. If it still acts up then, only
> > > >> things left I can think of are ecu, icm and the fuel pump.
> > > >>
> > > >> William
> > > >>
> > > >> Allyn wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > i would check the fuel pressure at the rail, or swap out the fpr.
> it
> > > >> > may not like the high volume from a cis pump (if you've still got
> one
> > > >> > in there).
> > > >> > Al
> > > >> >
> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Calimus"
> <calimus@techography.net>
> > > >> > To: "Scirocco-l" <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> > > >> > Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 3:29 PM
> > > >> > Subject: Need some help with a cis 8v
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >> Ok, basic description of the problem is that the engine appears to
> > > >> >> have a miss at idle that stays noticable through the rpm range.
> Also
> > > >> >> have to have the fuel mix very rich in order to keep it idling.
> > > >> >> Engine also will not idle when first start, you must keep it
> around
> > > >> >> 2k rpm untill the engine warms up a bit.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Now, here are the things I've checked or replaced.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> plugs (replaced)
> > > >> >> plug wires (replaced)
> > > >> >> dizzy cap and rotor (replaced)
> > > >> >> injectors (replaced with used but from known running car)
> > > >> >> Timing is dead on balls (cam/crank)
> > > >> >> Compression check is good (160, 155, 162, 153)
> > > >> >> Getting spark to all plugs
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> I think that covers it. This engine was recently swapped in,
> using
> > > >> >> the current fuel setup. It ran fine in the car it came out of.
> The
> > > >> >> previous engine had the warm up issue as well, but not this
> missing
> > > >> >> BS. Any ideas are welcome. I may have forgotten to list some of
> the
> > > >> >> things I did/checked but thats about the jist of it. My current
> > > >> >> thought is that it might be something with the fuel distributor but
> I
> > > >> >> thought I'd check with the list before I swap that out. This is
> on
> > > >> >> my wifes 89' cabby BTW
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> William S.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> --
> > > >> >> 88' Scirocco 16v (Crabby 16v)
> > > >> >> 89' Cabriolet 8v (Silver bunneh) 71' Karmann Ghia (air sucker)
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> http://www.techography.com/scirocco (s.org forums)
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> >> Scirocco-l mailing list
> > > >> >> Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > > >> >> http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> 88' Scirocco 16v (Crabby 16v)
> > > >> 89' Cabriolet 8v (Silver bunneh)
> > > >> 71' Karmann Ghia (air sucker)
> > > >>
> > > >> http://www.techography.com/scirocco (s.org forums)
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> Scirocco-l mailing list
> > > >> Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > > >> http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > David Utley
> > > > -----------
> > > > Cable Volkswagen
> > > > 405-470-3129
> > > > 1-800-522-6793
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > David Utley
> > -----------
> > Cable Volkswagen
> > 405-470-3129
> > 1-800-522-6793
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Scirocco-l mailing list
> > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> >
>
> --
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Brian
> 88 16v $2004 GRM challenge car http://www.grmotorsports.com
> 84 0v Next years car? mid engine... maybe we'll see
> 82 0v Black 16v kit --parts
> 82 2.0L Topless bunny -- Knock Ignition and bigger clutch. next.
> 90 90q20v doing daily driver duty.
> 91 VFR750F everybody needs a 11-12 sec vehicle.
>
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> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
David Utley
-----------
Cable Volkswagen
405-470-3129
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