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OT and not OT: towing ability
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I, too, have experience the perceived lack of low-end on the 16v. I =
have a sneaking suspiction it's cause by some anomoly in the fuel system =
or, more likely, in the ignition mapping. The engine itself is =
robust...the supporting systems are fragile.
Larry
sandiego16v
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Eric S=20
To: Chris DeLong ; rocco16v@netzero.net ; boisfort@myhome.net ; =
scirocco-l@scirocco.org=20
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: OT and not OT: towing ability
I think thats the biggest issue here. CIS-E does NOT seem anywhere =
near as reliable as CIS and CIS-Lambda. Granted, its a more advanced =
system...but at a cost of reliablity, with a gain in certain areas like =
idle control, more precise mixture control, etc. =20
I wonder how well a 16v would run (stock vs stock) if it was "down =
graded" to CIS-Lambda (not the euro 16v injection (straight CIS) that =
doesn't even use an oxy sensor).
And yes, the 16v vs 8v torque debate was debated and finally proved =
along time ago, that a 16v motor has more torque across the entire rev =
range than an 8v.=20
(Though, I'd like to see a stock 16v compared to an RD motor, not a =
JH...more fair comparison because of similar compression ratios) =20
Something about 16vs though, makes them feel like they have less low =
end grunt....probably because the bump in power in the high revs makes =
the rest of the rev range feel soft...dunno. Definate case of the butt =
dyno lying, thats for sure.
--
Eric
Northglenn, CO
79 VW Iltis
81 Scirocco S (*TDI* swap and complete restoration in holding pattern)
81 Rabbit Truck LX Diesel (Waiting for BAE Turbo Install)
83 Scirocco Wolfsburg
91 Cabriolet (2.0 Crossflow 8v swap and mechanical rebuild in =
progress)
--- "Chris DeLong" <green536@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Umm Brian in Washington, you might want to look at some dyno sheets =
directly=20
>pertaining to stock 8v's vs. stock 16v's and then rethink your =
understanding=20
>of power and torque output of the 16v vs the 8v. Not to mention the =
fact=20
>that 8v's break jsut about as often as 16v's. 16v's happen to have a =
little=20
>more to the engine management system than 8v's. This makes them a =
little=20
>more complex. Add to that the general cheapness of most 16v owners =
(spark=20
>plug wires are too *expensive*, so I will just reuse the old ones =
until the=20
>car dies). Simplify the 16v more and its just as reliable as an 8v.
>
>
>
>Chris DeLong
>Fine Tuning
>206.367.5503
>Seattle, WA USA
>
>
>
>
>
>>From: "L F" <rocco16v@netzero.net>
>>To: "Decker" <boisfort@myhome.net>,<scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
>>Subject: Re: OT and not OT: towing ability
>>Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 13:54:15 -0800
>>
>>Ouch.
>>:)
>>Larry
>>
>> It's amazing Larry but it seems that 90 % of the dead or dying =
Sciroccos=20
>>on this list asking for help seem to be 16 Valves. A 16 valve has to =
be=20
>>running if it's going to tow. Why so much down time? If one likes to =
run at=20
>>7000 RPM, brag horsepower and forget torque a 16 V is a great engine =
( if=20
>>it's running ).
>>
>> Brian in Washington
>> or California or anywhere else I want to go any day and every day =
in my=20
>>little ole 79 Scirocco with a willing 8 V.
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. =20
>http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/virus
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>
>_______________________________________________
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I, too, have experience the perceived =
lack of=20
low-end on the 16v. I have a sneaking suspiction it's cause by =
some=20
anomoly in the fuel system or, more likely, in the ignition =
mapping. The=20
engine itself is robust...the supporting systems are =
fragile.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Larry</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>sandiego16v</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:scirocco81@vwmail.net"; =
title=3Dscirocco81@vwmail.net>Eric S</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:green536@hotmail.com"=20
title=3Dgreen536@hotmail.com>Chris DeLong</A> ; <A=20
href=3D"mailto:rocco16v@netzero.net"=20
title=3Drocco16v@netzero.net>rocco16v@netzero.net</A> ; <A=20
href=3D"mailto:boisfort@myhome.net"=20
title=3Dboisfort@myhome.net>boisfort@myhome.net</A> ; <A=20
href=3D"mailto:scirocco-l@scirocco.org"=20
title=3Dscirocco-l@scirocco.org>scirocco-l@scirocco.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 30, 2003 =
11:34=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: OT and not OT: =
towing=20
ability</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I think thats the biggest issue here. CIS-E does =
NOT seem=20
anywhere near as reliable as CIS and CIS-Lambda. Granted, its a =
more=20
advanced system...but at a cost of reliablity, with a gain in certain =
areas=20
like idle control, more precise mixture control, etc. <BR><BR>I =
wonder=20
how well a 16v would run (stock vs stock) if it was "down graded" to=20
CIS-Lambda (not the euro 16v injection (straight CIS) that doesn't =
even use an=20
oxy sensor).<BR><BR>And yes, the 16v vs 8v torque debate was debated =
and=20
finally proved along time ago, that a 16v motor has more torque across =
the=20
entire rev range than an 8v. <BR><BR>(Though, I'd like to see a stock =
16v=20
compared to an RD motor, not a JH...more fair comparison because of =
similar=20
compression ratios) <BR><BR>Something about 16vs though, makes =
them feel=20
like they have less low end grunt....probably because the bump in =
power in the=20
high revs makes the rest of the rev range feel soft...dunno. =
Definate=20
case of the butt dyno lying, thats for =
sure.<BR><BR>--<BR>Eric<BR>Northglenn,=20
CO<BR><BR>79 VW Iltis<BR>81 Scirocco S (*TDI* swap and complete =
restoration in=20
holding pattern)<BR>81 Rabbit Truck LX Diesel (Waiting for BAE Turbo=20
Install)<BR>83 Scirocco Wolfsburg<BR>91 Cabriolet (2.0 Crossflow 8v =
swap and=20
mechanical rebuild in progress)<BR><BR><BR>--- "Chris DeLong" <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:green536@hotmail.com";>green536@hotmail.com</A>>=20
wrote:<BR>><BR>>Umm Brian in Washington, you might want to look =
at some=20
dyno sheets directly <BR>>pertaining to stock 8v's vs. stock 16v's =
and then=20
rethink your understanding <BR>>of power and torque output of the =
16v vs=20
the 8v. Not to mention the fact <BR>>that 8v's break jsut about as =
often as=20
16v's. 16v's happen to have a little <BR>>more to the engine =
management=20
system than 8v's. This makes them a little <BR>>more complex. Add =
to that=20
the general cheapness of most 16v owners (spark <BR>>plug wires are =
too=20
*expensive*, so I will just reuse the old ones until the <BR>>car =
dies).=20
Simplify the 16v more and its just as reliable as an=20
8v.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>Chris DeLong<BR>>Fine=20
Tuning<BR>>206.367.5503<BR>>Seattle, WA=20
USA<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>>From: "L F" =
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:rocco16v@netzero.net";>rocco16v@netzero.net</A>><BR>>=
>To:=20
"Decker" <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:boisfort@myhome.net";>boisfort@myhome.net</A>>,<<A =
=
href=3D"mailto:scirocco-l@scirocco.org";>scirocco-l@scirocco.org</A>><B=
R>>>Subject:=20
Re: OT and not OT: towing ability<BR>>>Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 =
13:54:15=20
=
-0800<BR>>><BR>>>Ouch.<BR>>>:)<BR>>>Larry<BR>>=
><BR>>> =20
It's amazing Larry but it seems that 90 % of the dead or dying =
Sciroccos=20
<BR>>>on this list asking for help seem to be 16 Valves. A 16 =
valve has=20
to be <BR>>>running if it's going to tow. Why so much down time? =
If one=20
likes to run at <BR>>>7000 RPM, brag horsepower and forget =
torque a 16 V=20
is a great engine ( if <BR>>>it's running=20
).<BR>>><BR>>> Brian in=20
Washington<BR>>> or California or anywhere else I =
want to go=20
any day and every day in my <BR>>>little ole 79 Scirocco with a =
willing=20
8=20
=
V.<BR>><BR>><BR>>_______________________________________________=
__________________<BR>>MSN=20
8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. <BR>><A =
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href=3D"http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/virus";>http://join.msn.com/?=
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_______________________<BR>>Scirocco-l=20
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href=3D"mailto:Scirocco-l@scirocco.org";>Scirocco-l@scirocco.org</A><BR>&g=
t;<A=20
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