When/why we need x-member bracing

[Rabbit16v@attbi.com (Rabbit16v)]

> On Wed, 5 Mar 2003 01:33:25 -0800 (PST)
> Dan Smith <sad_rocc@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >  Rabbit16v <Rabbit16v@attbi.com> wrote:
> > Congratulations!! You have figured out that manufacturers (in general,
> > not just VW) are ALWAYS trying to find ways to cut corners. VW
> > probably figured that their cars were only lasting (on average) about
> > 120 - 150K and figured"why the heck should be make them to last 20
> > years when they don't last that long".
>
> Fair point really. If I was buying the car brand new and I intended to
> keep it for 3 years maximum I wouldn't really be all that interested in
> the cars condition at the end of it's service life. The price, now that
> would interest me.

Exactly my point!  This is why we (you who have MK2s) are struggling with
weaker metals/bodies and need a stress bar just to keep the cars together.
The prices went up but did we see the quality improve?  Sure, we got
electric this or leather that but what about the quality in general?  Nope,
instead it went down.  I still think that VWs were probably on the higher
end of quality but this just goes toward the demise of quality all together.
>
> > So, they thin the metal a
> > little, use a cheaper but theoretically'just as strong' metal and
> > viola! A car that is cheaper to make, costs more, more pocket
> > padding!! It isn't a new revelation that cars get cheaper as they go.
> > Even the BMWs and Mercedes and Lexus, etc. more plastic, more cheezy
> > stuff etc. Sure, they may be more comfortable but I remember when
> > Mercedes and BMW had REAL wood on the dashes and used leather on the
> > sides and backs of the seats too! Or, didn't have everything that you
> > touch made out of plastic.
>
> On average cars have gotten better over time, not worse. I am only in my
> late-20s and I remember growing up with cars from the 1970's.
> Unreliable, major design flaws, and mainly used to be so rotten you
> scrapped them before 10 years, certainly in the Europe. German cars were
> always much better, but you had to pay for that.

I think the cars have gotten better as far as crash tests are concerned but
better overall??  I think not.  If so then why are the insurance companies
constantly raising the point at which a car is totalled?  Cause they know
the quality is going down and it isn't worth fixing a car that they will be
liable for.  I also disagree with the statement that the 70's cars were as
bad as you describe them.  Rust, sure, but now with all the undercoatings
you could probably reproduce a 70's car with the rustproofing of today and
have it last longer than a new car.
>
> > I bet that if you did the research you
> > would find that they put less into their cars these days even with all
> > the creature comforts when the cost of cars has gone up about 400%
> > over the last 20 to 25 years.
>
> Of course less goes in. This is because manufacturing has become more
> efficient. Plastics are better now than they were in the 70's, so they
> are used more, which means cars are cheaper to build and run.
> Complicated mechanical linkages and mechanisms are being increasingly
> replaced with computers, which you can't fix with a bent screwdriver and
> sticky tape but are more reliable long-term.

The reason why things have changed so drastically is that the government put
so many restrictions on automobiles so the manufacturers had to make them
lighter and more efficient.  I think we are just now starting to recover
from that and produce some pretty serious hp cars again.  BUT, the sad thing
is that most of those cars are imports!  I still haven't seen a domestic car
that I felt I had to have!

>
> There has also been a _little bit_ of inflation in the last 25 years,
> that 400% isn't all profit.

Granted but there are huge loop holes there.  Once the design process is
completed companies line up at your door to do business with you and for the
most part especially these days (sad to say) the cheapest usually wins out.
We also didn't have near as many ties to other countries as we do now or the
technology to create manufacturing materials (metals/plastics/etc) as
cheaply as we do now so I would say a LOT of that goes into profit.
>
> > I would say, though, that of all the
> > automotive companies that have been around for 50 years or more, the
> > German companies are the ones who still take a lot of pride in their
> > workmanship and, even though they make gobs of money, seem to be more
> > interested in turning out top of the line cars than cutting the
> > corners to make an extra penny per car.
>
> I think with the strength of the German economy they can afford to have
> wider margins.

Have you checked into the German economy lately?  It is rather volitile
since it is a country the size of Oregon and something like the Berlin wall
coming down or creating the Euro dollar can and was rather devistating.
>
> > I have owned some newer VWs (well, mid to late eighties) but would
> > never want to keep one. I have and will always use late 70's VWs for
> > all my projects especially if they have any kind of frame twisting
> > power! Just my opinion!
>
> A newer shell is less likely to be rust-eaten or accident damaged.
>
> The build quality of my 86 Scirocco GT is top-notch

Sure, but a newer shell in this particular situation is not likely to be as
tough.  I am not ragging on your car specifically but I do agree with you.
Your 86 Scirocco is top notch, for an 86.

Dave