[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
Water pump....questions
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C2DF74.5FA90CF0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
WOW,
A well thought out, researched reply and amazingly lucid....Larry did
you bonk your head on the hood again?
I have not seen any DEBATE on this subject, simply a discussion of the
possibility of using an electric water pump to save a few HP and I
surely do appreciate the fact that several list members are looking for
and discussing alternatives to factory cooling. As for your
"specialized products" comment, it should be apparent by now that many
of us are actively researching the application of specialized products
as we have moved well beyond the daily driver version of our beloved
Sciroccos.
IMHO, and of course it's IMHO...the electric water pumps that have been
discussed not only exceed the capacity of the stock system but can also
free up several HP without any adverse effect on the charging system.
Most of the aftermarket pump setups draw very little current and
certainly would cause little to no measurable drag on the charging
system.
As an additional reason to pursue the use of an electric pump, research
shows that these pumps are good for around 2000 hours of continuous use.
Consider that for every hour spent in your car you drive about 30 miles
or less and that's equal to (in hypothetical numbers) around 50-60k
miles of driving. How many factory water pumps make the 60,000 mile
mark? Coupled with the ability to use the pump to reverse the flow of
coolant for turbo applications to cool the head first or to use the pump
with a timer for after-run cool-down on a turbo or race application I
would say that the benefits certainly outweigh any theoretical HP
robbing load on the electrical system.
BcH
-----Original Message-----
From: L F [mailto:rocco16v@netzero.net]
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 9:13 PM
To: bhonnold@pac-cap.com; '_Scirocco Mailing List'
Subject: Re: Water pump....questions
This is a subject that was VERY recently debated, and this is the last I
have to say on it;
You have to be careful when you are considering specialized products
like this, Brian.
Every electric water pump in the Summit catalog is listed under
"Hardcore Racing Parts".
Look at the advertising for electric water pumps:
A Moroso ad says "for drag race use only"
Dedenbear's ad says "for drag race use only"
One CSI ad says "just for dragsters"
A Meziere ad says "oval track, off road, and pulling applications"
Those are situations where the electric pump can be powered by an
isolated battery.
There's no doubt that replacing the standard water pump with an electric
pump will save horsepower IF (big if) you run that pump off a battery
that isn't being charged by an alternator powered by the same engine.
That's what the sellers base their claims on.
Where do you think the energy to power an electric water pump comes
from?
Answer: a battery. Where does the energy that's in the street car
battery come from?
Answer: the alternator. And where does the energy to spin the alternator
come from?
Use of an electric water pump puts three additional devices into the
energy 'loop'; the alternator, wiring, and the battery, none of which is
100% efficient, so it will not save power, ultimately it can only
consume additional power.
In a street car, there is only one source of power. One. The engine.
In a street car, the engine supplies power for the water pump, either
directly or indirectly.
Just stop and think about it for a minute....that's all I ask.
No matter who on this list disagrees with me, it won't change the facts.
Larry
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Honnold <mailto:bhonnold@pac-cap.com>
To: '_Scirocco <mailto:scirocco-l@scirocco.org> Mailing List'
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 5:33 PM
Subject: RE: Water pump....questions
So tell us Larry, exactly why do companies like Moroso, Meizere and
Weiand (sp) waste the time and $$ to produce electric water pumps, and
then go to the trouble of dyno testing cars both with and without those
pumps, in order to advertise that 10+hp is freed up on an chevy motor
due to the reduced drag on the pulley system?
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C2DF74.5FA90CF0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 10 (filtered)">
<title>Message</title>
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle17
{font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>
<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>WOW,</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>A well thought out, researched =
reply and
amazingly lucid……….Larry did you bonk your head on the =
hood
again?</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I have not seen any DEBATE on this
subject, simply a discussion of the possibility of using an electric =
water pump
to save a few HP and I surely do appreciate the fact that several list =
members
are looking for and discussing alternatives to factory cooling. As =
for your
“specialized products” comment, it should be apparent by now =
that
many of us are actively researching the application of specialized =
products as
we have moved well beyond the daily driver version of our beloved =
Sciroccos.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>IMHO, and of course it’s =
IMHO………the
electric water pumps that have been discussed not only exceed the =
capacity of
the stock system but can also free up several HP without any adverse =
effect on the
charging system. Most of the aftermarket pump setups draw very =
little current
and certainly would cause little to no measurable drag on the charging =
system.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>As an additional reason to pursue =
the use
of an electric pump, research shows that these pumps are good for around =
2000
hours of continuous use. Consider that for every hour spent in =
your car
you drive about 30 miles or less and that’s equal to (in =
hypothetical
numbers) around 50-60k miles of driving. How many factory water =
pumps
make the 60,000 mile mark? Coupled with the ability to use the =
pump to
reverse the flow of coolant for turbo applications to cool the head =
first or to
use the pump with a timer for after-run cool-down on a turbo or race
application I would say that the benefits certainly outweigh any =
theoretical HP
robbing load on the electrical system.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>BcH</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original =
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> L F
[mailto:rocco16v@netzero.net] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> </span></font><font =
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Friday,
February 28, 2003</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>9:13 PM</span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> bhonnold@pac-cap.com;
'_Scirocco Mailing List'<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Water
pump....questions</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>This is a subject that was =
VERY
recently debated, and this is the last I have to say on =
it;</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>You have to be careful when =
you are
considering specialized products like this, Brian.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Every electric water pump =
in the </span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Summit</span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> catalog is
listed under "Hardcore Racing Parts".</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Look at the advertising for =
electric
water pumps:</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>A Moroso ad says "for =
drag race
use only"</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Dedenbear's ad says =
"for drag
race use only"</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>One CSI ad says "just =
for
dragsters"</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>A Meziere ad says =
"oval track,
off road, and pulling applications"</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Those are situations where =
the
electric pump can be powered by an isolated battery.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>There's no doubt that =
replacing the
standard water pump with an electric pump will save horsepower IF (big =
if) you
run that pump off a battery that isn't being charged by an alternator
powered by the same engine. That's what the sellers base their =
claims
on.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Where do you think the =
energy to
power an electric water pump comes from? </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Answer: a =
battery. Where
does the energy that's in the street car battery come =
from?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Answer: the alternator. And =
where
does the energy to spin the alternator come from?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Use of an electric water =
pump puts
three additional devices into the energy 'loop'; the alternator, wiring, =
and
the battery, none of which is 100% efficient, so it will not save power,
ultimately it can only consume additional power.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>In a street car, there is =
only one
source of power. One. The engine.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>In a street car, the =
engine
supplies power for the water pump, either directly or =
indirectly.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Just stop and think about =
it for a
minute....that's all I ask.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>No matter who on this =
list
disagrees with me, it won't change the facts. </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Larry</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'=
>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message =
----- </span></font></p>
</div>
<div style=3D'font-color:black'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=3D2
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span=
></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href=3D"mailto:bhonnold@pac-cap.com"; =
title=3D"bhonnold@pac-cap.com">Brian Honnold</a>
</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span><=
/font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href=3D"mailto:scirocco-l@scirocco.org"; =
title=3D"scirocco-l@scirocco.org">'_Scirocco
Mailing List'</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span=
></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font><font =
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Friday, February
28, 2003</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>5:33 PM</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</s=
pan></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> RE: Water
pump....questions</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>So tell us =
Larry, exactly
why do companies like Moroso, Meizere and Weiand (sp) waste the time and =
$$ to
produce electric water pumps, and then go to the trouble of dyno testing =
cars
both with and without those pumps, in order to advertise that 10+hp =
is
freed up on an chevy motor due to the reduced drag on the pulley =
system?</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> </span></fo=
nt></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</body>
</html>
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C2DF74.5FA90CF0--