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Josh Able: puny fuel injectors

Subject: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
From: mkii@nycap.rr.com (Josh Able)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:06:10 -0400
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33L2.0206111359180.29522-100000@earendel.org>
That's the only thing I took a photo of.

why?

Josh Able

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian McGarvey" <brianm@earendel.org>
To: "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>
Cc: "ATS - Patrick Bureau" <pbureau@attbi.com>; <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors


>
> Josh.
> The data that is up on that screen is Corrected data. What does the Raw,
> at the wheel chart look like?
> brian
>
>
> On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Josh Able wrote:
>
> > http://users.tunerswanted.org/JoshmkII/dyno.jpg
> >
> >
> > Josh Able
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "ATS - Patrick Bureau" <pbureau@attbi.com>
> > To: "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>; <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:51 PM
> > Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> >
> >
> > > post it :)
> > >
> > > ==========================================
> > > ATS - Patrick Bureau
> > > 1985 8v **Planning 3A/JH  Upgrade**
> > > 1988 16v ** FOR SALE : 1000.00$ **
> > > Web Site : http://longcoeur.com/scirocco
> > >
> > >
> > > =>-----Original Message-----
> > > =>From: scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org
> > > =>[mailto:scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Josh Able
> > > =>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:38 AM
> > > =>To: scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > > =>Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> > > =>
> > > =>
> > > =>and I have the chart to prove it. :P
> > > =>
> > > =>
> > > =>Josh Able
> > > =>
> > > =>----- Original Message -----
> > > =>From: "ATS - Patrick Bureau" <pbureau@attbi.com>
> > > =>To: "_Scirocco Mailing List" <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> > > =>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:34 PM
> > > =>Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> > > =>
> > > =>
> > > =>> Yanno, talk is cheap, Dyno Chart speaks by themselves .. (GRIN)
> > > =>> No I am not doubting what anyone is saying here...
> > > =>> Just wanted to throw 2 cents in the argument...
> > > =>> it's a canadian thing... don't worry about it. :)
> > > =>>
> > > =>> ==========================================
> > > =>> ATS - Patrick Bureau
> > > =>> 1985 8v **Planning 3A/JH  Upgrade**
> > > =>> 1988 16v ** FOR SALE : 1000.00$ **
> > > =>> Web Site : http://longcoeur.com/scirocco
> > > =>>
> > > =>>
> > > =>> =>-----Original Message-----
> > > =>> =>From: scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org
> > > =>> =>[mailto:scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Josh Able
> > > =>> =>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:22 AM
> > > =>> =>To: Scott F. Williams
> > > =>> =>Cc: scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > > =>> =>Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> > > =>> =>
> > > =>> =>
> > > =>> =>
> > > =>> =>31 pound = 310cc
> > > =>> =>running at about 75% duty cycle
> > > =>> =>
> > > =>> =>trust me Scott, other shops that sell full kits use these and
> > > =>> =>produce 350ish
> > > =>> =>hp.
> > > =>> =>
> > > =>> =>
> > > =>> =>These are larger than stock.
> > > =>> =>
> > > =>> =>
> > > =>> =>
> > > =>> =>Josh Able
> > > =>> =>
> > > =>> =>----- Original Message -----
> > > =>> =>From: "Scott F. Williams" <sfwilliams@comcast.net>
> > > =>> =>To: "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>
> > > =>> =>Cc: "Scirocco List" <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> > > =>> =>Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:48 PM
> > > =>> =>Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
> > > =>> =>
> > > =>> =>
> > > =>> =>> > nope, even 20v turbos pushing closer to 375hp use 310 many
> > times,
> > > =>> =>anything
> > > =>> =>> > they tend to run to rich.
> > > =>> =>>
> > > =>> =>> My man, this is 100% *impossible*. Way more gasoline is
> > > =>needed to make
> > > =>> =>that
> > > =>> =>> kind of power. This isn't even an engine capability
> > > =>discussion. We're
> > > =>> =>> talking about the amount of chemical energy stored in a given
> > volume
> > > =>of
> > > =>> =>> gasoline. There's only but so much in there! Like I said
> > > =>> =>before, there are
> > > =>> =>> three ways to flow more fuel:
> > > =>> =>>
> > > =>> =>> a) increase the fuel pressure
> > > =>> =>> In order to make 297hp at the wheels, you'd have to run a fuel
> > > =>> =>pressure of
> > > =>> =>> 185psi. This is about 4x the stock amount. Not only would this
> > burst
> > > =>the
> > > =>> =>> fuel lines, it would blow the fuel pressure regulator to bits,
> > > =>> =>destroy the
> > > =>> =>> injectors immediately, and would completely overwhelm the
engine
> > > =>> =>management
> > > =>> =>> system.
> > > =>> =>>
> > > =>> =>> b) leave the injectors on longer
> > > =>> =>> The injectors can only flow their maximum rated amount of
fuel. In
> > > =>your
> > > =>> =>> stated case that is 310cc/minute at full duty cycle.
> > > =>However, the ECU
> > > =>> =>pulses
> > > =>> =>> them on/off at anything less than full load. That is how you
get a
> > > =>> =>variable
> > > =>> =>> amount of fuel delivery. Figure at idle they might be running
at
> > 5%
> > > =>duty
> > > =>> =>> cycle. Running them at maximum flow (non-pulsed)is 100% duty
> > cycle.
> > > =>> =>However,
> > > =>> =>> the maximum safe duty cycle is 80%. Pushing the injectors
> > > =>beyond this
> > > =>> =>point
> > > =>> =>> for a prolonged period of time will destroy them.
> > > =>> =>>
> > > =>> =>> To make the point clear, in order to deliver enough fuel at a
> > > =>> =>*dangerous*
> > > =>> =>> 100% duty cycle (at 50.75psi fuel pressure) you'd need to run
> > 480cc
> > > =>> =>> injectors! Those 310cc pee shooters would be overwhelmed at
> > > =>> =>just 210hp! In
> > > =>> =>> fact, with that math considered, it sounds like the 310cc are
> > > =>> =>the engine's
> > > =>> =>> *stock* injectors.
> > > =>> =>>
> > > =>> =>> c) install bigger injectors
> > > =>> =>> If you're following me so far, you'll understand why what
> > > =>> =>you're claiming
> > > =>> =>> isn't feasible in the slightest.
> > > =>> =>>
> > > =>> =>> > hm..31 pound injectors do = 310cc right?
> > > =>> =>>
> > > =>> =>> Er... *no*. The conversion is actually 10.5:1. That is,
1lb/hour =
> > > =>> =>> 10.5cc/min. So, if you've really got .31 pound injectors, then
> > > =>> =>the metric
> > > =>> =>> flow rating is really 3.25cc. Now *that* really is far
fetched!
> > :^)
> > > =>> =>>
> > > =>> =>> Seriously, man. You need to go back to your builder and demand
> > > =>accurate
> > > =>> =>> information. Little injectors like that are simply incapable
of
> > > =>flowing
> > > =>> =>> enough gas to produce the horsepower that they've sold you on.
I
> > > =>totally
> > > =>> =>> believe that your engine can make that level of power.
However,
> > the
> > > =>> =>> injectors aren't up to the task. You've either got erroneous
> > > =>> =>flow capacity
> > > =>> =>> information or you're making a lot less power then you think.
> > > =>> =>>
> > > =>> =>> I'm not busting your balls, of course. These are the
inflexible
> > laws
> > > =>of
> > > =>> =>> physics and thermodynamics that we're playing with here!
> > > =>> =>>
> > > =>> =>> P.S. If you're injectors are grossly undersized, you will blow
the
> > > =>thing
> > > =>> =>to
> > > =>> =>> smithereens in short order. You *must* do the research to
> > > =>ensure that
> > > =>> =>you've
> > > =>> =>> got a safe combination. Do it in the name of science,
paranoia, or
> > > =>> =>whatever.
> > > =>> =>> Just do it and do it right away.
> > > =>> =>> --
> > > =>> =>> Scott F. Williams
> > > =>> =>> NJ Scirocco nut
> > > =>> =>> '99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
> > > =>> =>> Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle
> > > =>> =>> Golf GTI 16v "rollycar"
> > > =>> =>> ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted."
> > > =>> =>>
> > > =>> =>>
> > > =>> =>>
> > > =>> =>> _______________________________________________
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> > > =>> =>>
> > > =>> =>
> > > =>> =>
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> > > =>
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