Josh Able: puny fuel injectors

[pbureau@attbi.com (ATS - Patrick Bureau)]

Nice 224 Torque...

==========================================
ATS - Patrick Bureau
1985 8v **Planning 3A/JH  Upgrade**
1988 16v ** FOR SALE : 1000.00$ **
Web Site : http://longcoeur.com/scirocco


=>-----Original Message-----
=>From: Josh Able [mailto:mkii@nycap.rr.com]
=>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:56 AM
=>To: ATS - Patrick Bureau; scirocco-l@scirocco.org
=>Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
=>
=>
=>http://users.tunerswanted.org/JoshmkII/dyno.jpg
=>
=>
=>Josh Able
=>
=>----- Original Message -----
=>From: "ATS - Patrick Bureau" <pbureau@attbi.com>
=>To: "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>; <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
=>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:51 PM
=>Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
=>
=>
=>> post it :)
=>>
=>> ==========================================
=>> ATS - Patrick Bureau
=>> 1985 8v **Planning 3A/JH  Upgrade**
=>> 1988 16v ** FOR SALE : 1000.00$ **
=>> Web Site : http://longcoeur.com/scirocco
=>>
=>>
=>> =>-----Original Message-----
=>> =>From: scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org
=>> =>[mailto:scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Josh Able
=>> =>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:38 AM
=>> =>To: scirocco-l@scirocco.org
=>> =>Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
=>> =>
=>> =>
=>> =>and I have the chart to prove it. :P
=>> =>
=>> =>
=>> =>Josh Able
=>> =>
=>> =>----- Original Message -----
=>> =>From: "ATS - Patrick Bureau" <pbureau@attbi.com>
=>> =>To: "_Scirocco Mailing List" <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
=>> =>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:34 PM
=>> =>Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
=>> =>
=>> =>
=>> =>> Yanno, talk is cheap, Dyno Chart speaks by themselves .. (GRIN)
=>> =>> No I am not doubting what anyone is saying here...
=>> =>> Just wanted to throw 2 cents in the argument...
=>> =>> it's a canadian thing... don't worry about it. :)
=>> =>>
=>> =>> ==========================================
=>> =>> ATS - Patrick Bureau
=>> =>> 1985 8v **Planning 3A/JH  Upgrade**
=>> =>> 1988 16v ** FOR SALE : 1000.00$ **
=>> =>> Web Site : http://longcoeur.com/scirocco
=>> =>>
=>> =>>
=>> =>> =>-----Original Message-----
=>> =>> =>From: scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org
=>> =>> =>[mailto:scirocco-l-admin@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Josh Able
=>> =>> =>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:22 AM
=>> =>> =>To: Scott F. Williams
=>> =>> =>Cc: scirocco-l@scirocco.org
=>> =>> =>Subject: Re: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
=>> =>> =>
=>> =>> =>
=>> =>> =>
=>> =>> =>31 pound = 310cc
=>> =>> =>running at about 75% duty cycle
=>> =>> =>
=>> =>> =>trust me Scott, other shops that sell full kits use these and
=>> =>> =>produce 350ish
=>> =>> =>hp.
=>> =>> =>
=>> =>> =>
=>> =>> =>These are larger than stock.
=>> =>> =>
=>> =>> =>
=>> =>> =>
=>> =>> =>Josh Able
=>> =>> =>
=>> =>> =>----- Original Message -----
=>> =>> =>From: "Scott F. Williams" <sfwilliams@comcast.net>
=>> =>> =>To: "Josh Able" <mkii@nycap.rr.com>
=>> =>> =>Cc: "Scirocco List" <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
=>> =>> =>Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:48 PM
=>> =>> =>Subject: RE: Josh Able: puny fuel injectors
=>> =>> =>
=>> =>> =>
=>> =>> =>> > nope, even 20v turbos pushing closer to 375hp use 310 many
=>times,
=>> =>> =>anything
=>> =>> =>> > they tend to run to rich.
=>> =>> =>>
=>> =>> =>> My man, this is 100% *impossible*. Way more gasoline is
=>> =>needed to make
=>> =>> =>that
=>> =>> =>> kind of power. This isn't even an engine capability
=>> =>discussion. We're
=>> =>> =>> talking about the amount of chemical energy stored in a given
=>volume
=>> =>of
=>> =>> =>> gasoline. There's only but so much in there! Like I said
=>> =>> =>before, there are
=>> =>> =>> three ways to flow more fuel:
=>> =>> =>>
=>> =>> =>> a) increase the fuel pressure
=>> =>> =>> In order to make 297hp at the wheels, you'd have to run a fuel
=>> =>> =>pressure of
=>> =>> =>> 185psi. This is about 4x the stock amount. Not only would this
=>burst
=>> =>the
=>> =>> =>> fuel lines, it would blow the fuel pressure regulator to bits,
=>> =>> =>destroy the
=>> =>> =>> injectors immediately, and would completely overwhelm the engine
=>> =>> =>management
=>> =>> =>> system.
=>> =>> =>>
=>> =>> =>> b) leave the injectors on longer
=>> =>> =>> The injectors can only flow their maximum rated amount
=>of fuel. In
=>> =>your
=>> =>> =>> stated case that is 310cc/minute at full duty cycle.
=>> =>However, the ECU
=>> =>> =>pulses
=>> =>> =>> them on/off at anything less than full load. That is
=>how you get a
=>> =>> =>variable
=>> =>> =>> amount of fuel delivery. Figure at idle they might be running at
=>5%
=>> =>duty
=>> =>> =>> cycle. Running them at maximum flow (non-pulsed)is 100% duty
=>cycle.
=>> =>> =>However,
=>> =>> =>> the maximum safe duty cycle is 80%. Pushing the injectors
=>> =>beyond this
=>> =>> =>point
=>> =>> =>> for a prolonged period of time will destroy them.
=>> =>> =>>
=>> =>> =>> To make the point clear, in order to deliver enough fuel at a
=>> =>> =>*dangerous*
=>> =>> =>> 100% duty cycle (at 50.75psi fuel pressure) you'd need to run
=>480cc
=>> =>> =>> injectors! Those 310cc pee shooters would be overwhelmed at
=>> =>> =>just 210hp! In
=>> =>> =>> fact, with that math considered, it sounds like the 310cc are
=>> =>> =>the engine's
=>> =>> =>> *stock* injectors.
=>> =>> =>>
=>> =>> =>> c) install bigger injectors
=>> =>> =>> If you're following me so far, you'll understand why what
=>> =>> =>you're claiming
=>> =>> =>> isn't feasible in the slightest.
=>> =>> =>>
=>> =>> =>> > hm..31 pound injectors do = 310cc right?
=>> =>> =>>
=>> =>> =>> Er... *no*. The conversion is actually 10.5:1. That is,
=>1lb/hour =
=>> =>> =>> 10.5cc/min. So, if you've really got .31 pound injectors, then
=>> =>> =>the metric
=>> =>> =>> flow rating is really 3.25cc. Now *that* really is far fetched!
=>:^)
=>> =>> =>>
=>> =>> =>> Seriously, man. You need to go back to your builder and demand
=>> =>accurate
=>> =>> =>> information. Little injectors like that are simply incapable of
=>> =>flowing
=>> =>> =>> enough gas to produce the horsepower that they've sold you on. I
=>> =>totally
=>> =>> =>> believe that your engine can make that level of power. However,
=>the
=>> =>> =>> injectors aren't up to the task. You've either got erroneous
=>> =>> =>flow capacity
=>> =>> =>> information or you're making a lot less power then you think.
=>> =>> =>>
=>> =>> =>> I'm not busting your balls, of course. These are the inflexible
=>laws
=>> =>of
=>> =>> =>> physics and thermodynamics that we're playing with here!
=>> =>> =>>
=>> =>> =>> P.S. If you're injectors are grossly undersized, you
=>will blow the
=>> =>thing
=>> =>> =>to
=>> =>> =>> smithereens in short order. You *must* do the research to
=>> =>ensure that
=>> =>> =>you've
=>> =>> =>> got a safe combination. Do it in the name of science,
=>paranoia, or
=>> =>> =>whatever.
=>> =>> =>> Just do it and do it right away.
=>> =>> =>> --
=>> =>> =>> Scott F. Williams
=>> =>> =>> NJ Scirocco nut
=>> =>> =>> '99 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
=>> =>> =>> Mazda 323 GTX turbo "assaulted" vehicle
=>> =>> =>> Golf GTI 16v "rollycar"
=>> =>> =>> ClubVAC: "Roads found. Drivers wanted."
=>> =>> =>>
=>> =>> =>>
=>> =>> =>>
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=>> =>> =>
=>> =>> =>
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