RE: throttlebodies versus turbo

["Neal Tovsen" <sixteen.volt@verizon.net>]

Honnold, you forgot to mention that a 225hp N/A 16v is going to have as much
torque below 5000rpm as a 70's vintage turbo motor with coked bearings...

The Badger5 system is (as the Brits say) "the dog's dangles". I want one.
However, unless you have to conform to a set of competition rules or you're
just into the all-motor thing, you physically cannot compete on a
performance level with forced induction...in almost any measurable way. An
engine is an air pump, and power grows as air consumption grows. Study the
physics. Do the math. Plain and simple.

Neal

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> [mailto:owner-scirocco-l@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of BHonnold
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 3:47 PM
> To: Scirocco-l
> Subject: RE: throttlebodies versus turbo
>
>
> Scott,
>
> While I agree with the majority of what you say let me point
> out a couple
> things.
>
> My $1500 thrown together 16v Turbo estimate is right on the
> money.  Figure
> $450 for the manifold, $150 for the turbo, $250 for plumbing of
> oil/water/intercooler, $100 intercooler, $100 clutch upgrade, $250
> miscellaneous.  Use stock CIS-E injectors and engine
> management along with
> an AIC $250 and your ready to Roc with right around 200HP......this is
> figuring a nice 5-7lb boost system on a 2.0 16v motor.
>
> >1. The t-bodies are a *much* simpler system. Rather than lots of
> proprietary
> >and expensive components all over the place, more parts are
> deleted than
> >dded. In fact, installing the system is essentially as
> simple as replacing
> >the stock intake manifold. (Of course, the EMS is another story...)
>
> Let me point out that this is not a sijmple bolt on due to
> the fact that you
> lose the vacuum port necessary for our cars vaccum assisted
> brake system.
> Therefore you have to drill and tap 4 ports into the Badger5
> setup and run
> those 4ports to a central vacuum cylinder and then to the brake
> booster.........how comfortable are YOU drilling and tapping
> your $1000
> individual TB setup?
>
> >2. The car's weight is reduced rather than increased
> -probably by 70lbs or
> >more. That weight is up high in the engine bay, too. The end
> result is a
> >better balanced car that handles and brakes better. The
> weight advantage
> >also negates a wee bit of the power deficit.
>
> The individual TB setup will not save anywhere near 70lbs.
> The 16v Roc
> intake manifold upper and lower including TB barely weighs
> about 30lbs and I
> bet the Badger5 setup is the same.
>
> >3. It will be difficult to stick the 300hp that the turbo
> may eventually
> >make. Unless dragracing is a primary interest, the turbo
> advantage not even
> >be apparent.
>
> Agreed, sticking even 200HP at the wheels requires a clutch
> upgrade and
> probably a quaiff.  But, you have one and so do I. :-P~
>
> >4. We all know that making the throttlebodies work requires
> tuning with a
> >programmable engine management system. If done properly,
> this will be a
> >helluva lot more reliable than a CIS-based turbo system. It
> will probably
> >exceed the properly managed turbo car's reliability, too. In
> one case we're
> >increasing power by improving the efficiency (t-bodies). In
> the latter
> we're
> >doing it by forcing it to work harder (turbo).
>
> Did we all know this? My point is simply that a cis-e based
> turbo system can
> make 200HP.  As for reliability most aftermarket systems win
> out over 20
> year old stock systems. By the same token add the same
> aftermarket setup to
> our homebrew turbo along with, a fuel rail and 5500cc
> injectors.....and pick
> up another 50+ wheel HP.
>
> >5. Nitrous Oxide can be safely added and controlled with
> such a management
> >system. Throw a 50 shot on there and you're just a few
> ponies short of what
> >is available from the turbo. At this point you're paying
> *less* money. Yes,
> >you could always squeeze juice on top of the turbo, but now
> you're really
> >defying the laws of nature. :^)
>
> NOS....silly wabbit NOS is for Dentists. Even the most basic
> 50 shot setup
> on an Individual TB system will cost at least $500 to buy and set up.
>
> >6. NO TURBO LAG.
>
> A low boost 16v setup using the smaller/newer t-25 turbo or
> the .42 AR T-3
> with .48 exhaust will start delivering boost around 2500 RPMS
> and be fully
> blowing by 5000.  Drive the new 1.8t stock outta the box and feel the
> lag.......if you pick the turbo and engine managment right
> for a street
> setup, there won't be any lag.  However, the turbo will reach peak
> efficiency at like 6000 rpms and that's just not a whole
> lotta fun on a 16v.
>
> Just for the record, the sound of a BOV venting at 10psi
> between shifts is
> THE coolest sound ever to come from a 16v Roc.
>
> BcH
>
>
>
>
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