Re: The poop on ABS

[Anthony Pelletier <vwnuts@yahoo.com>]

I didn't realize mannix(sp)had signed back on the list.   J/k don't
bring me into the arument I just had to write that.  It makes for a
little humor to break up the work day


--- 16v Jason <jason@scirocco.org> wrote:
> At 01:49 PM 8/24/99 , Ben Patterson wrote:
> >	First off, I was the one driving the car you
> mentioned above, 
> >not my wife (since I'm not married) and therefore
> can't blame the 
> >accident on the Driving While Female syndrome (I
> apologize to the 
> >women on the list before I get flamed, but I was
> almost killed by 
> >another stupid woman in a Toyota last night, so
> bear with me). I also 
> >didn't insinuate that ABS caused the brake dive -
> like I said, I 
> >drove an 89' Accord without ABS for a few years
> before I got the 94' 
> >Accord, and if anything the dive on the 89' was
> worse because the 
> >suspension was shot.
> 
> Ben, forgive me for my argumentative tone... in
> advance. :)
> 
> In your original post, you said, and I quote: "I
> stomped the brakes and the
> damn ABS wouldn't let me lock up- went right under
> his back bumper because
> of the weight transfer forward.
> If I had been driving the 89' I would have been
> fine.".  Okay, dunno where
> I imagined the wife scenario, but that sentence,
> without reference to any
> suspension, seemed to indict ABS as the cause of
> your brake dive.
> 
> And, I maintain, you're lucky the ABS _didn't_ let
> you lock up-- I didn't
> make up those figures from Road & Track-- on a
> locked-wheel stop from
> 60mph, full lockup took 213ft vs 133ft with ABS. 
> Sure, it wasn't an
> Accord, but I'd be willing to bet serious money that
> those results are
> applicable to just about any car on the road.  I
> mean, it's a known fact
> that the coefficient of friction is reduced with a
> sliding tire...
> resulting in none other than longer braking
> distances.
> 
> 
> >	Second, I do appreciate ABS for general braking
> applications. 
> >It works great especially for wet pavement, snow,
> loose surfaces, 
> >etc. I've pushed the 97' Accord as hard as it can
> go and the ABS has 
> >been great, never failed and probably kept me on
> the road while doing 
> >some pretty stupid stuff.
> 
> Hmmm.. strange; you're toting the benefits of ABS on
> the surfaces that it
> actually _increases_ braking distances, while
> criticizing it's efficacy on
> the surfaces where it actually works.  That's
> interesting... :)
> 
> >	When I purchased the 97', I drove the EX model
> with the ABS 
> >and the LX model without it for almost 45 minutes
> each and spent a 
> >lot of time checking the braking distances under
> the same driving 
> >circumstances. (Before you flame me again, keep in
> mind this is only 
> >personal experience and it's only with Honda
> Accords - haven't had 
> >the chance to drive comparative models of other
> cars, at least as 
> >half as hard as I drove these). The ABS helped keep
> the car under 
> >better control in high performance situations (hard
> cornering and 
> >speeds around 140mph), and it felt really good. I
> personally like it 
> >more than non-ABS in terms of driving style, at
> least on the Hondas. 
> 
> Speeds around 140?  Strange, since the EX has a
> published top speed of 129mph.
> 
> >But what I did find was that the non-ABS car had
> shorter braking 
> >distances at speeds less than 35 MPH on dry
> pavement with an educated 
> >lock. My brother and 2 other Honda-owning friends
> also agree, even as 
> >we swap each other's cars to check this out now. We
> all like ABS as a 
> >general rule and paid the extra money to get it,
> but I will swear 
> >till the day I die that if I had a car without ABS
> I wouldn't have 
> >had that accident. If dropping ABS into a 'rocco
> wasn't a fortune I'd 
> 
> 
> And mind you, I'm not saying ABS is the be-all and
> end-all of braking.
> However, despite the fact that I think Honda has one
> of the least effective
> ABS systems on the road (personal opinion, of
> course, based on lots of
> driving in a Civic EX), I have a hard time
> swallowing many of your arguments.
> 
> #1: I find it hard to believe you're insane enough
> to be braking hard
> enough on public roads at 140mph (an unattainable
> speed to begin with in an
> Accord) to lock the wheels, much less to be able to
> comment on what ABS
> does for stability at those speeds.
> 
> #2:  I do feel that at low speeds (20mph and below)
> stopping is probably
> increased by ABS when compared to threshold-braking
> techniques... and
> engineers obviously agree with me since ABS
> generally disengages at speeds
> below 12mph... However, there are many other factors
> that determine the
> braking distance in a panic stop.
> 
>   The one that comes to mind as the biggest factor
> is the time between
> reaction and full braking.  If you mash the pedal as
> hard as you can,
> you'll get to 100% braking immediately with ABS. 
> But if you're trying to
> threshold brake, it's going to take you anywhere
> from a 1/2 second on up to
> get that pedal to the sweet spot. It's this exact
> factor that explains
> Mercedes et al's new "Brake Assist" system, which
> detects a panic stop,
> even if full braking is not applied, and boosts
> brake pressure to full
> braking.  My point is, that even though stopping
> from 20-12 mph (when the
> ABS disengages) might take marginally longer, the
> benefits of achieving
> full braking instantly while you're still at, say,
> 60mph, completely and
> without question outweigh the longer braking.  Let's
> face it, 1/2 second at
> 60mph is 44 feet - a lot more distance travelled
> than an additional 2 feet
> from 20-12 (A stop which probably only takes 15-20
> feet anyways).  That is
> the benefit of ABS in the real world.
> 
> >do it too, but hell, it's not worth the money. If
> you want ABS that 
> >bad for the safety, why drive a Scirocco? Next
> thing ya know there 
> >will be a thread on airbags... yeesh.
> 
> 	Eeeh, don't even get me started on Airbags! :)
> 	I would love to add ABS to my Scirocco.  I won't,
> of course, because I
> don't have the time...  But the ABS available in the
> A2 cars (which is what
> I would use) was Bosch Generation I, which, in
> addition to its reputation
> of not aging gracefully, wasn't a fast acting system
> to begin with.
> 
> >By the way..... switch to decaf dude, before you
> have an aneurism...heh
> heh. =)
> 
> Fuck the coffee, I need a bowl. :)
> 
> Jason
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------
> 1987 Scirocco 16v
> 1989 Mercedes 190E Sport Euro
> 
> 
> http://members.aol.com/rocco16v  
> 
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