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Re: The poop on ABS



-Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 01:25:26 -0400
-From: 16v Jason <jason@scirocco.org>
-Subject: Re: The poop on ABS-
-
-At 12:01 AM 8/24/99 , Dan Brideau wrote:
->Friends and neighbors,
->
->ABS equipped cars see, on average, a 6.5% stopping distance benefit 				-over
-similar non-ABS cars.
->
->You non-believers in ABS got me worked up.  Month after month I see
-complaints that your cars are too slow, and what can I do to make it go
-faster.----

Thank you, Dan.

-I, personally, am sick to death of defending the benefits of ABS to people
-who never bother taking the time to learn how and why the system works, and
-who blame it for causing accidents that would have happened with or without
-ABS. -

-Why, just the other day, on this very list, I laughed to myself as someone
-on this very list blamed ABS for making his wife's Honda rear-end someone,
-and then went so far as to ludicrously accuse ABS for the brake dive which
-caused the front of his car to hit the car in front below the bumper.
-Buddy, no offense-- but get your facts straight:  ABS doesn't cause Brake
-Dive; PHYSICS does.

-People, wake the fuck up.  ABS will _NOT_ increase your stopping distances
-on dry pavement.  And until you can modulate all 4 wheels individually, 15
-times a second, in a panic stop, get it through your heads that it will,
-under just about every condition you'll encounter driving, help you stop
-more quickly, and (most importantly) maintain steering control while
-staying at the limits of the tires' adhesion.

-You can NOT modulate each wheel individually, which means you can NOT
-compensate for one wheel which will lock up before the others do.  You can
-NOT modulate your brakes quickly enough to keep the wheels at impending
-lockup over the changing surface and surface texture of a road... or to
-compensate for weight distribution changes from bumps.  You can NOT
-suddenly apply enough force to your brake pedal to have the wheels achieve
-maximum braking instantly without locking your wheels.  Put all these
-together: YOU CAN NOT STOP YOUR CAR AS QUICKLY AS YOU CAN WITH ABS ON DRY
-PAVEMENT IN THE REAL WORLD. END OF STORY.

-Yes, if you spend umpteen thousands of dollars with sophisticated equiment,
-you could probably apply a series of proportioning valves to your brake
-lines so that each wheel brakes which exactly the correct force to keep it
-at impending lockup.  However, despite all the (rediculous) time and money
-spent, the first time you have a 20 pound bag of fucking GROCERIES in the
-trunk, all of that will be thrown off.  Forget about what happens around a
-turn, or over bumps.

-An ABS system has control over each wheel individually.  You cannot; you
-have one brake pedal for all 4 wheels.   Your right front tire, for
-example, might be at impending lockup, giving fully 100% of its maximum
-braking capacity.  However, the front left wheel might be at 90%, and the
-rear wheels at 60%.  You could hit the pedal harder to bring the left front
-up to 100%, but then you're locking up the front right, which diminishes
-steering control significantly, and reduces that tire's braking
-effectiveness to below 100% anyways.

-Dan, and others, here's an exerpt from one of my famous rants about ABS on
-the A2-16v list.  We had a huge debate on that list months and months ago
-on this very topic.  Jason spoke, and everyone shut their mouths.  You
-can't argue with facts.  So, non-believers, go to bed with your physics
-book and learn the facts before you start accusing one of the Automotive
-Industry's greatest technologies for causing accidents, when it was you in
-the first place that caused the damn accident.

Jason has spoken.

- ----------
1987 Scirocco 16v
1989 Mercedes 190E Sport Euro


http://members.aol.com/rocco16v

-"Why, just the other day, on this very list, I laughed to myself as someone
-on this very list blamed ABS for making his wife's Honda rear-end someone,
-and then went so far as to ludicrously accuse ABS for the brake dive which
-caused the front of his car to hit the car in front below the bumper.
-Buddy, no offense-- but get your facts straight:  ABS doesn't cause Brake
-Dive; PHYSICS does."

Whoa there buddy -
	First off, I was the one driving the car you mentioned above, 
not my wife (since I'm not married) and therefore can't blame the 
accident on the Driving While Female syndrome (I apologize to the 
women on the list before I get flamed, but I was almost killed by 
another stupid woman in a Toyota last night, so bear with me). I also 
didn't insinuate that ABS caused the brake dive - like I said, I 
drove an 89' Accord without ABS for a few years before I got the 94' 
Accord, and if anything the dive on the 89' was worse because the 
suspension was shot.
	Second, I do appreciate ABS for general braking applications. 
It works great especially for wet pavement, snow, loose surfaces, 
etc. I've pushed the 97' Accord as hard as it can go and the ABS has 
been great, never failed and probably kept me on the road while doing 
some pretty stupid stuff.
	When I purchased the 97', I drove the EX model with the ABS 
and the LX model without it for almost 45 minutes each and spent a 
lot of time checking the braking distances under the same driving 
circumstances. (Before you flame me again, keep in mind this is only 
personal experience and it's only with Honda Accords - haven't had 
the chance to drive comparative models of other cars, at least as 
half as hard as I drove these). The ABS helped keep the car under 
better control in high performance situations (hard cornering and 
speeds around 140mph), and it felt really good. I personally like it 
more than non-ABS in terms of driving style, at least on the Hondas. 
But what I did find was that the non-ABS car had shorter braking 
distances at speeds less than 35 MPH on dry pavement with an educated 
lock. My brother and 2 other Honda-owning friends also agree, even as 
we swap each other's cars to check this out now. We all like ABS as a 
general rule and paid the extra money to get it, but I will swear 
till the day I die that if I had a car without ABS I wouldn't have 
had that accident. If dropping ABS into a 'rocco wasn't a fortune I'd 
do it too, but hell, it's not worth the money. If you want ABS that 
bad for the safety, why drive a Scirocco? Next thing ya know there 
will be a thread on airbags... yeesh.


By the way..... switch to decaf dude, before you have an aneurism...heh heh. =)



			Ben Patterson (86' 16v)



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