RE: Supertrapp exaust question-Toyota and Scirocco

["Crane, Damien" <d3c@TENNANTCO.com>]

> ----------
> From: 	I.Mannix[SMTP:mannix@secretignition.com]
> Sent: 	Monday, October 19, 1998 6:20 PM
> To: 	lerb; scirocco-L@scirocco.org
> Subject: 	Re: Supertrapp exaust question-Toyota and Scirocco
> 
> At 03:56 PM 10/19/98 -0400, lerb wrote:
> >Well I have one...I will tell you why I got mine!.. If you think about it
> >what makes a high performance exhaust?
> 
> Thinking....umm, good bends, well thought out primary diameters, lengths,
> things to help flow, scavenging and using exhaust pulses to your
> advantage.
> 
> 
> >1. It is possible to tune you entire car by your exhaust to max output.
> 
> More on this later....
> 
> >2. None of the more modern systems are tunable
> 
> There might be a reason for this.
> 
> >3.What happens to my performance/Exhaust usage as I change modifications?
> >4.What was an alternative to the standard (you know the standard VW
> exhaust
> >aftermarket.)
> 
> ???  Lots of alternatives, even if you bought it 10 years ago.  
> 
> 
> >Now I will tell you why I bought mine.
> 
> OK....
> 
>  Ok when you buy a
> >"normal" system such as tectonics, borla and all those similar what
> happens
> >when you change your setup? What happens when you install a cam? What
> >happens when you want to add a turbo? NOTHING............absolutely
> NOTHING
> >you just have the highest flowing exhaust tuned to stock! Period......no
> way
> >of changing it at all.
> 
> Chopped out all the other stuff.  So, lesse.  All the exhausts out there
> are maximized for stock use?  Supertrapps are known to provide the most
> power with no discs whatsoever, at least on VWs.  They are also known, at
> least locally, to kill power on VWs - many people have dynoed them, and
> they don't seem to allow the most power.  Not many people will dyno
> several
> mufflers to see which gives the most power - including me.  I've heard,
> from reputable sources, that Supertrapps are not the best.  Maybe they're
> hiding something from me, but they don't use them, either.  Installing a
> turbo will necessitate an exhaust change, no matter what - let's start by
> making the distinction between _MUFFLER_ and _EXHAUST_.  A Supertrapp is a
> muffler.  With a Supertrapp, you have two choices - straight through
> glasspack or straight through glasspack with restriction. 
Supertrapps have bothered me for a while because I could never figure them
out.  Looking at them, it seems like a terrible way to do an exhaust.  I was
at the Trans-Am race here in Mpls and I happened upon one of those racecars
built by University Engineering departments and raced against other like
cars built by other University Engineering departments.  The
designers/builders of the car were hanging around answering questions.  I
noticed that they had a supertrapp on so I asked them how could that muffler
design not suck(not literally).  He said it all had to do with turbulence
and that there is much more to exhaust design (and fluid dynamics in
general) that meets the eye.  He said that many performance mufflers
(especially glasspacks with 'dimples') create a lot of turbulence which is
very bad for flow.  The supertrapps have very carefully designed diffusers
which direct the exhaust out the plates in a way that results in very little
turbulence.  He also said that the supertrapp doesn't flow best with all the
plates and the diffusers removed because of what happens when the exhaust
abruptly exits the pipe without them.  

Anyway, I have no way to know whether he was making this up or not, but he
sounded like a lot of time, effort and experimentation had gone into their
exhaust choice.  Something that didn't occur to me until much later is that
you can get supertrapps without a glasspack -- only the diffuser/plate
system.  They may have been using this model.


>  Great.  Exhaust
> "tuning" goes far beyond sticking various sized corks in the tailpipe.
> Engine displacement does not change with anything but cams, engine
> displacement basically determines how much stuff comes out of the engine,
> a
> cam will simply allow more unburned stuff into the combustion chamber.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding here, but I have to disagree if you are saying
that changing cams/porting-polishing doesn't change the amount/speed of the
exhaust.  These things are all to get more charge, which naturally more
comes out.


>  I mean hell if you buy a pair of cams and Hardly
> >feel a difference it is probably somewhere else. Start looking as simple
> as
> >the exhaust.
> 
> I agree - exhaust is important, and it is important to make an educated
> decision in buying an exhaust.  My _main_ complaint with Supertrapp is the
> resonance I spoke of in my original post.  They sound neat outside the
> car,
> gee, they sound like a glasspack.  WRT making/killing power, I don't know
> -
> I've dragraced a friend's Rabbit w/Supertrapp, it has a "real" IT motor in
> it, IE, one built for Improved Touring, and at the time, it was no faster
> than mine.  My car is faster now.  Can't say that the Supertrapp is to
> blame - but it should be faster, I mean, the motor had 13k on it, mine had
> 130k on it - his was rebuilt with the Improved Touring rulebook open, mine
> was built in 1983.  His car was lighter.  He's lighter.  He is a good
> driver.  Yet, for some reason, my car was just as quick.  
> 
> 
> >Some features of my supertrap....lifetime warranty (stainless only) if
> you
> >want more top end add more plates if you want more bottom end take them
> off.
> >strange thing is it gets louder the more plates you put on!
> 
> Not strange - pushing the same amount of air through smaller holes.  
> 
> Supertrapps are interesting mufflers.  I sorta want one, just to goof
> around with it, but it does not make sense to me.  Adding restriction
> seems
> like backwards "tuning" to me.  It works - adding restriction will change
> where the motor makes its peak power, and peak power is seen with no
> discs.
>  To me, "tuning" an exhaust starts at the head, ends at the tailpipe.
> IMHO, if you want the car to make good power at a certain RPM, start with
> the engine, and as far as the exhaust is concerned, make sure it flows
> well, maintains velocity & meets whatever sound requirements are in order.
> 
> 
> 
> >I have heard alot of people on here and the A-2 list bad mouth these
> >exhausts but yet I see those same guys at the shows and see they have
> >techtonics exhausts. I have done the math.....no other exhaust is
> >tunable...none.......hope this helped ya...I am going to sit back and let
> >the complaints fly :)
> 
> 
> Made me think more about why I don't really like Supertrapps.  That helps!
> As far as shows, well, a TT exhaust(or mine) is not terribly glamourous -
> pretty draned ugly, actually, just a pipe, but pipes are what's needed, so
> I have a pipe.  Supertrapps do look neat.  You're correct - no other
> MUFFLER is "tunable."  There is a new muffler on the market that has an
> "attack" mode(giggle), at high rpms, it pushes a little pipe out &
> increases flow.  MR2 Performance, in Denver, designed/tested the Nology
> Hotshot/Shotgun/something with Shot in it exhaust - little flapper which
> increases backpressure for torque at low rpms, at high rpms, exhaust gases
> open it up, creates a straightpipe.  To me, this makes more sense than a
> Supertrapp - at least it is variable, and hey, that's tunable, at least
> John's prototypes were - you could change the spring that held the plate
> closed, changing when it opened, so the Supertrapp is _not_ the only
> "tunable" muffler out there.   Anyhow, I guess my point is this -
> Supertrapps can change power peaks.  Supertrapps, however, will limit flow
> at various rpms, depending on how many discs there are.  Most will agree
> that power is lost with discs on a Supertrapp - might change the peak, but
> you lose something.  If it works for you, great!  Not for me.  Dirtbikes
> seem to work well with them, for one reason or another, might have
> something to do with scavenging.  Don't know. Never seen you write more
> than one line, Lerb!;) 
> 
> 
> I.Mannix
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