VW Racer - Suspension set-up?

[haygood at myway.com (Brian Haygood)]

Agreeing with Dan...



So, in theory, Dick Shine is right.  If you pick the appropriate spring rate, you should only need one sway bar to balance things out.  Well, that's the theory if you are designing your own race car with a real suspension, anyway.  In reality, the lifted rear wheel phenomenon, heavy forward weight bias and lack of camber change in bump mean that it could be useful.  Keep in mind that the front anti-sway bar mounts at the A-arms are lousy and apparently bind up quite a bit.  If I were doing a Scirocco race car (which I haven't), I'd try fairly hard to make a no-front-bar setup work before giving up on it.  As others mentioned, adjustability is good, so the ability to tune shock rates is nice.  However, AFAIK Koni doesn't make coilovers, so you are giving up easy height and balance adjustments for shock adjustments.  In theory (there's that catch-word agains), there is one shock rate that will work best with a given spring rate and corner weight, so if you got a set of springs 
and shocks that were made to work together on your type of car, "in theory" you wouldn't need an adjustable shock.  How close the race/coilover setups out there actually come to this I have no idea.  



In practice, my teams either ordered custom coilovers from Works, or used late model bike shocks that were both coilover and adjustable.  Of course we had complete discretion on suspension design/linkages to make the bike parts work, which you might not.  



Brian





 --- On Thu 01/25, Dan Bubb < jdbubb@verizon.net > wrote:

From: Dan Bubb [mailto: jdbubb@verizon.net]

To: scirocco-l@scirocco.org

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:15:11 -0500

Subject: Re: VW Racer - Suspension set-up?



I think your approach on this should be to select what seem to be the appropriate springs, then fit anti-sway bars to get the handling you want.<br>The Scirocco chassis has virtually no camber gain, so the flatter the car runs the better the tires will grip. Course if the circuits you run on are bumpy you may find you'll loose grip if the car is too stiff to keep the tires on the ground.<br>In any event, I think there are a lot of people that could give you advice for a street setup, but for a race setup you'll need to experiment.<br>As Eric pointed out it's possible to get a car that'll rotate too fast on closed throttle on corner entry.<br>Based on that I would select the springs that seem appropriate and run with stock front and rear bars.<br>See how much the car rolls and whether it understeers or oversteers. Check out the change in handling by removing one bar or the other.<br>With that data, tire temperature information and some visual input on how much the car is 
rolling in the corners you should be able to decide if you need bigger sway bars and if so at which end or perhaps stiffer springs (or softer springs if the car doesn't ride the bumps well).<br>Only you as the driver can decide how you like the car to handle and make the appropriate changes to get it there.<br>Shock tuning is also another huge input into not only how well the car rides the bumps, but also can effect transient cornering behavior.<br>One thing to keep in mind is once one of the inner tires is in the air (most likely the rear on a Scirocco), stiffening that end of the car further will have no effect on how much the car rolls.<br><br>From: "Cory Langford" <Cory_Langford@bcit.ca><br>To: "Eric Person" <eperson@gmail.com><br>Cc: "Scirocco List" <scirocco-l@scirocco.org><br>Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 1:14 PM<br>Subject: Re: VW Racer - Suspension set-up?<br><br><br> <br>> Opps, I only put half the thought into the email :)<br>> <br>> I was looking at a heavy 
spring rate up front (again those in the know pipe<br>> in I'd love to hear oppinions) in the 500-600 range, and then a set of 400<br>> in the rear.  It seems common practice to try and balance out the<br>> aproximate weight of the vehicle at each corner to the spring rate.  At<br>> about 1900 lbs with more weight in the front than the rear that looked like<br>> a good starting point.  But I really have to look into what kind of struts<br>> to use with the system.<br>> <br>> And again, would a set of sways help or hinder this setup?<br>> <br>> Cory<br>> <br>> <br>> -----Eric Person <eperson@gmail.com> wrote: -----<br>> <br>>>To: Cory Langford<br>>>From: Eric Person<br>>>Date: 01/25/2007 10:03AM<br>>>cc: Nate Mellom , Tonee Northam ,<br>>>Scirocco List<br>>>Subject: Re: VW Racer - Suspension set-up?<br>>><br>>>No they have to match the rest of the suspension setup, its a whole<br>>>package that works together.<br>>>Someone that races competetively must still be on the list and 
can<br>>>fill<br>>>you in with the right spring rates. Stock bar in front and 28mm in<br>>>rear<br>>>seems like a decent setup, but again has to be with the right balance<br>>>of<br>>>springs.<br>>><br>>>Cory Langford wrote:<br>>><br>>>> So a good stiff set of springs in the front is the best way to go.<br>>>><br>>>> Would the retention of a stock 16V front sway help at all with a<br>>>heavy<br>>>> set of springs (say 500-600) or do you think it would hinder the<br>>>> performance?<br>>>><br>>>> Cory<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> -----Eric Person wrote: -----<br>>>><br>>>> >To: Nate Mellom<br>>>> >From: Eric Person<br>>>> >Date: 01/24/2007 07:57PM<br>>>> >cc: Tonee Northam , Cory Langford<br>>>> >, Scirocco List<br>>>> >Subject: Re: VW Racer - Suspension set-up?<br>>>> ><br>>>> >Neuspeed race w/ koni yellows<br>>>> >Nearly full stiff at the rear, maybe 1/3 to 1/2 up front. No<br>>>front<br>>>> >bar,<br>>>> >stock rear bar. Needs the 28mm rear bar that I have in the<br>>>garage,<br>>>> 
>but<br>>>> >there are times when the thing rotates so much on lift throttle<br>>>that<br>>>> >I<br>>>> >question the need for it. I think it will help balance the car<br>>>out,<br>>>> >but<br>>>> >on the street it will be fun to keep the tail underneath it. With<br>>>> >race<br>>>> >tires it isnt an issue really. I think im going to try it out<br>>>this<br>>>> >year<br>>>> >and see if its too much. I have nothing behind my front seats<br>>>> >however,<br>>>> >so there really isnt much weight in the rear at all. I think the<br>>>> >real<br>>>> >issue is my spring rates, I would much rather be a bit stiffer in<br>>>the<br>>>> ><br>>>> >rear and a little in the front even, but get the ride height up<br>>>all<br>>>> >around. Its quite low as it sits, which probably isnt helping. I<br>>>> >also<br>>>> >could use more camber, but Im kinda limited by rubbing on the<br>>>inner<br>>>> >fenders and strut housings. Camber plates would be ideal.<br>>>> ><br>>>> >As far as the front bar 
issue, I dont care either way, as long as<br>>>its<br>>>> ><br>>>> >balanced out with the rest of the suspension. Different people<br>>>like<br>>>> ><br>>>> >different setups. If I ran a front bar I would go with a 28mm<br>>>rear<br>>>> >bar<br>>>> >for sure. I got so tired of the A1's half ass front bar design<br>>>that<br>>>> >I<br>>>> >was about to take a hammer to the whole front suspension. The<br>>>front<br>>>> >end<br>>>> >links are impossible, they break all the time unless you run a<br>>>stock<br>>>> ><br>>>> >bar, they are so close to the half shafts and cv boots that they<br>>>are<br>>>> ><br>>>> >impossible to deal with, and when I went to the billet aluminum<br>>>> >mounts,<br>>>> >I succeeded in losing the bolts in them and the bracket falling<br>>>off.<br>>>> ><br>>>> >Its just a shitty design any way you look at it, and even if it<br>>>works<br>>>> ><br>>>> >for you, it still unloads the inside front wheel on corners and<br>>>you<br>>>> >end<br>>>> >up with no 
traction unless you are quaife'd. I threw away all<br>>>that<br>>>> >tacked on bracketry and shitty piece of tubular steel last year<br>>>and<br>>>> >havent looked back. I can see both sides of the argument, it just<br>>>> >for a<br>>>> >race car get the right spring rates on your coilovers to start<br>>>with<br>>>> >so<br>>>> >as to have the roll stiffness you want, play with the rear bar if<br>>>> >needed, but ditch the front. I never thought I would agree with<br>>>that<br>>>> ><br>>>> >blowhard Dick Shine on anything, but I guess I do.<br>>>> ><br>>>> >I guess it doesnt help this is my one and only car, street car,<br>>>race<br>>>> ><br>>>> >car, grocery getter, highway road trip car, everything :)<br>>>> ><br>>>> >Eric<br>>>> ><br>> >> >><br>>>><br><br><br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Scirocco-l mailing list<br>> Scirocco-l@scirocco.org<br>> 
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