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Fuel enrichment - was: (RE: Semi O/T: Got a pickup with2.016V,do I need Motronic?)



wow, alot more complicated than I was expecting...

> 
> From: Marc_Scirocco_Qu?bec <marc_scirocco@sympatico.ca>
> Date: 2004/03/12 Fri PM 11:22:14 EST
> To: "Ryan H" <rhock99@epix.net>
> Subject: RE: Fuel enrichment - was: (RE: Semi O/T: Got a pickup with	2.016V,do I need Motronic?)
> 
> There it is
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> Marc
> '83 Scirocco
> '97 A4
> 
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Ryan H [mailto:rhock99@epix.net]
> > Envoy? : vendredi 12 mars 2004 23:16
> > ? : Marc_Scirocco_Qu?bec
> > Objet : Re: Fuel enrichment - was: (RE: Semi O/T: Got a pickup with
> > 2.016V,do I need Motronic?)
> >
> >
> > Marc, I can host if possible!  Thanks...
> > >
> > > From: Marc_Scirocco_Qu?bec <marc_scirocco@sympatico.ca>
> > > Date: 2004/03/12 Fri PM 07:20:06 EST
> > > To: <rfkellner@snet.net>,  <mr.utility@highstream.net>,
> > > 	<treed2@wsu.edu>,  <vwdaun@yahoo.com>,  <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> > > Subject: RE: Fuel enrichment - was: (RE: Semi O/T: Got a pickup with
> > > 	2.016V,do I need Motronic?)
> > >
> > > I have one web pages with schematics for a 16V Fuel Enrichment
> > device. If
> > > someone wants to host it, LMK
> > >
> > > There is also a good post from Chris NG, dating back in 1998,
> > included in
> > > the bottom of this post.
> > >
> > > Cheers.
> > >
> > > Marc
> > > '83 Scirocco
> > > '97 A4
> > >
> > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > De : scirocco-l-bounces@scirocco.org
> > > > [mailto:scirocco-l-bounces@scirocco.org]De la part de
> > rfkellner@snet.net
> > > > Envoy? : vendredi 12 mars 2004 13:03
> > > > ? : mr.utility@highstream.net; treed2@wsu.edu; vwdaun@yahoo.com;
> > > > scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > > > Objet : Re: Fuel enrichment - was: (RE: Semi O/T: Got a pickup with
> > > > 2.016V,do I need Motronic?)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Toby, I would like to see a schematic if available.
> > > > In the mean time, here is a site to the simple version.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Lot/8341/Tech/CIS-E.html
> > > >
> > > > Rick Kellner.
> > > >
> > > > Original Message:
> > > > -----------------
> > > > From: David Utley mr.utility@highstream.net
> > > > Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:19:47 -0500
> > > > To: treed2@wsu.edu, vwdaun@yahoo.com, scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > > > Subject: Re: Fuel enrichment - was: (RE: Semi O/T: Got a pickup with
> > > > 2.016V, do I need Motronic?)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Although electronics is not my strong suit, I am interested,
> > especially if
> > > > we
> > > > can figure out a way to build it where it would indeed be
> > weather tight,
> > > > and
> > > > perhaps a better, long-lasting design?  Toby, what type of
> > design would be
> > > > mo'
> > > > better than the Autotech one?  I am interested if and when
> > you have the
> > > > chance/inclination to design something...
> > > >
> > > > TIA,
> > > >   David Utley
> > > >
> > > > Quoting "T. Reed" <treed2@wsu.edu>:
> > > >
> > > > > > > > No, stay away from the fuel enrichment modules.  Almost
> > > > > > > > everyone I've ever heard of having one eventually
> > > > > > > removes
> > > > > > > > it because it ends up causing running issues, either
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > the 1.8 or 2.0.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  Daun, any recommendations
> > > > > > > for an expose' on
> > > > > > > those?  I shall have to look at that more carefully...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No expose, just an observed thread that pops up on the list
> > > > > > every now and then, and at least three friends off the top
> > > > > > of my head have had issues.
> > > > >
> > > > > I too have had issues with my homebrew TT-style
> > (relay+resistor) module,
> > > > > as well as my brother with his..
> > > > >
> > > > > In both cases, replacing the relay fixed the problem. A dissection
> > > > > revealed that water had gotten inside and corroded the
> > relay terminals,
> > > > > adding a significant amount of resistance.
> > > > >
> > > > > A better solution would be to use a watertight relay, or design a
> > > > > solid-state FET circuit to do the switching (without a relay).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On another note..
> > > > >
> > > > > I have an Autotech module (due for installation Real Soon Now)
> > > > and I took
> > > > > it apart to see what's inside. I found an LM311 (voltage comparator)
> > > > > driving a small relay, a rotary switch and a bank of resistors.
> > > > >
> > > > > It appears to be bringing in the tach signal, running it through a
> > > > > half-wave rectifier to produce a dc signal, then comparing that to a
> > > > > reference voltage (corresponding to ~3000 rpm) and when the
> > comparator
> > > > > output turns on, activating a relay to switch one of the resistors
> > > > > (the one selected by the rotary switch) in series with the
> > DPR to change
> > > > > the current. A lower DPR current corresponds to a richer
> > > > mixture, so this
> > > > > makes sense. Oh yeah, and there is also a BJT that prevents
> > that device
> > > > > from activating unless the full throttle switch is closed.
> > > > >
> > > > > I might be able to post pictures and schematics at a later time, but
> > > > > unless you want to build it on a wire-wrap board or etch a PCB, it's
> > > > > probably too "busy" of a circuit to build your own (lots of
> > components).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > To be honest, I was expecting better (from autotech?! i
> > know, i know..)
> > > > > Granted, you're getting a lot more than the TT module (it's
> > adjustable,
> > > > > it doesn't activate below 3000rpm and cause bogging, it modifies dpr
> > > > > current directly which doesn't suffer from the same problem
> > as tricking
> > > > > the ecu with the coolant temp sensor.. that the enrichment
> > lasts only as
> > > > > long as it takes the o2 to detect and undo it), but the circuit they
> > > > > used is primitive. I thought maybe they would use a current
> > amplifier to
> > > > > do a linear enrichment based on rpm, or something along those lines.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Since the module housing has no grommets or seal sealing
> > whatsoever, I
> > > > > suspect that the reports of failure with the autotech
> > module are due to
> > > > > the same thing as the others.. water getting inside the relay.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Toby
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > David Utley
> > > > -----------
> > > > Cable Volkswagen
> > > > 405-470-3129
> > > > 1-800-522-6793
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From chrisng@usa.net  Fri Oct  9 01:17:32 1998
> > > To:
> > > Subject: Re: Power Module FAQ
> > > Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 23:18:23 -0600
> > >
> > >
> > > Here's what you'll need..
> > >
> > > 1) a SPDT (single pole, double throw) relay (you can also use a DPDT
> > > ((Double Pole Double Throw)) if you can't find a SPDT) .. I
> > purchased mine
> > > at Radio Shack
> > >
> > > 2) a 1100 Ohm resistor (Ideally a blue colored one.. I used a brown one
> > > though.. the blue ones have better tolorence)
> > >
> > > that's all :) ..  The idea of the power module is to hook it up
> > with your
> > > full throttle switch (I will assume that you have an 8V or 16V CIS-E
> > > motor).. when your full throttle switch is activated, the power module
> > > modifies the output current from the coolant temp switch to the ECU..
> > > Tricking the ECU into thinking that the motor is still cold..
> > the ECU then
> > > enrichens the mixture to the motor... There ARE a few little quirks with
> > > this system, but I'll get to those and how to get around them
> > in a little
> > > bit.. first, here is the hookup of the module..
> > >
> > > RELAY
> > > ======
> > > A SPDT relay has 5 pins on it.. Here is the layout of a typical
> > SPDT relay
> > > (also known as a bosch relay):
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A relay works with a coil. When the one side of the coil gets
> > energized with
> > > a 12volt signal and the other side of the coil is grounded the
> > coil becomes
> > > energized. When the coil becomes energized it creates a electromagnetic
> > > field with pulls the switch from its defaulted or natural
> > resting position
> > > to the switched position which completes the wanted circuit.
> > When the coil
> > > loses 12volts or its ground the coils electromagnetic field
> > will collapse
> > > and the relay switch falls back to its default resting position
> > opening the
> > > circuit that the relay was completing while its coil was energized.
> > > The relay consist of 5 connection points. These connection
> > points are known
> > > as pins. Two of the pins are for the coil (pins 85 and 86). One
> > of the pins
> > > is for a constant connection (pin 30). The default/natrual
> > resting switch
> > > connection is pin 87. Pin 87 is connected to pin 30 when the coil is not
> > > energized. Pin 87A is the pin that pin 30 is switched to when
> > the coil is
> > > energized..
> > >
> > > HOOKUP
> > > ========
> > > Now, here's the fun part..
> > >
> > > 1100 Ohm resistor - Hooks up across pins 87 and 87A
> > >
> > > Pin 85-  hooks up to your full throttle switch signal line.. on
> > 8V CIS-E it
> > > should be the violet colored lead coming from the full throttle
> > connector..
> > > You can verify this with a voltmeter.. You can just simply tap into this
> > > line..
> > >
> > > Pin 86- Connects to a good ground .. or to a switch inside your
> > cabin, then
> > > to ground (more on this in a bit)
> > >
> > > Pin 30- There are 2 wires on the coolant temp switch on an 8V CIS-E.. If
> > > memory serves properly, one is blue/yellow and the other is
> > brown.. One of
> > > these wires is energized 12V.. the other wire (I belive it's
> > the brown one)
> > > is your coolant temp signal line.. Again, check with a voltmeter to make
> > > sure you got the right one.. you do NOT want to cut the 12V
> > line..  Cut the
> > > signal in two .. You will want to connect the line coming out from the
> > > coolant temp sensor to pin 30
> > >
> > > Pin 87- Connect the other half of the coolant temp signal line, the half
> > > leading back to the ECU to pin 87
> > >
> > > Pin 87A- No leads connected.
> > >
> > > You're DONE!
> > >
> > > CHECKING IF IT WORKED
> > > ======================
> > > Full throttle enrichment occurs when 2 criteria are met
> > > a) Full Throttle switch is activated
> > > b) Engine is at over 4000 rpm (8V) or 2500 rpm (16V)
> > >
> > > You can sit there with an idling motor manually activating the
> > switch and
> > > nothing will occur.. However, with the power module attached,
> > cold engine
> > > enrichment occurs whenever the full throttle switch it
> > activated.. with the
> > > motor idling, if you activate the switch a few times, you
> > should be able to
> > > detect a change in the motor idling speed.. if the motor's idle
> > changes when
> > > the switch is activated, then the power module is functioning properly..
> > >
> > > HOW IT WORKS
> > > =============
> > > When the full throttle switch is activated, a 12V signal is sent and
> > > energizes the coil in the relay.. with the coil energized the circuit
> > > between pin 30 and pin 87A is complete.. since the 1100 ohm
> > resistor shorts
> > > pins 87A and 87, current is modifed by the resistor and goes to
> > the ECU, via
> > > pin 87...Enrichment occurs..
> > >
> > > When the coil is not energized, the circuit between pins 87 and 30 is
> > > completed.. current goes to the ECU unmodified.. Enrichment
> > does not occur..
> > >
> > > KNOWN PROBLEMS
> > > =================
> > > 1) The reason the module works is because VW's tend to run lean
> > at higher
> > > RPM's.. the extra enrichment helps out this situation and provides more
> > > power at these RPM ranges.. .However, because of the design of
> > the module,
> > > it does not detect what RPM you are at.. it enriches the
> > mixture whenever
> > > the full throttle switch is activated.. this leads to
> > situations when the
> > > enrichment actually robs the motor of power.. Imagine cruising
> > at 2500rpm..
> > > then having to accelerate quickly..you get on the accelerator
> > all the way..
> > > then full throttle switch is activated..enrichment occures
> > before you hit
> > > the "lean" part.. power doesn't come on quite as strong as it
> > could because
> > > you are now running an overly rich mixture..
> > > A quick and dirty solution for this situation is to hook up a
> > switch inside
> > > the car to turn the module on or off.. This is done by hooking
> > up a switch
> > > in series to Pin 86.. This way, when you are just cruising
> > around, you can
> > > keep the unit off .. driveablility will not be sacrificed..
> > When you need
> > > that extra power to pull you thru the weak spots, you can
> > simply flip the
> > > switch to activate the module..eg: When acclerating away from a stop
> > > quickly.. keep module off thru 1st and 2nd gears, in 3rd gear
> > when you hit
> > > 4000rpm, activate module..
> > >
> > > 2) 1100 ohm was used as the resistor value becasue the
> > Techtonics unit used
> > > the value.. Perhaps your vehicle requires a lower or higher
> > value resistance
> > > for best power.. at 1100 ohms the ECU belives the coolant temp is around
> > > 30-35 degress C (about 86-100 degrees F)..Cold running
> > enrichment no longer
> > > occurs when coolant temp reaches 50 degrees C (122 F).. (I
> > could be wrong
> > > about this... ) .. at 50 degrees, resistance is about 900 Ohms..  at 0
> > > degrees C (32 F) resistance would be at about 5000 ohms.. the higher the
> > > value of the resistor, the richer your mixture would be..
> > instead of a fixed
> > > value resistor, you could hook up a variable resistor
> > (Potentiometer) across
> > > pins 87 and 87A and have it in your car as well.. Value should
> > be variable
> > > between 5000 ohms and 900 ohms .. this will allow you to "fine tune" the
> > > ammount of extra enrichment your vehicle requires..
> > >
> > > 3) You may want to create some sort of case to enclose your
> > module to keep
> > > it away from the rain etc.. I'm not too sure what would happen
> > if it got wet
> > > and started to short ..
> > >
> > >
> > > REAL WORLD TESTING (aka: Seat of my pants)
> > > ====================
> > >
> > > 86 GTI - 270 Cam, no cat, 2 1/2" exahust, K&N filter
> > >
> > > Before Module-
> > > 1st Gear- Had never been a problem..always pulled cleanly and realativly
> > > hard to redline
> > > 2nd Gear -Pulled strong as well till about 5500 rpm, when it
> > would pull into
> > > redline roughly
> > > 3rd Gear - Would hit about 5000 rpm, then started to wheeze it's way to
> > > redline.. 5000+ rpm felt very soft
> > > 4th Gear - Same as 3rd.. would pull till about 4500 rpm, then
> > make it's way
> > > up the rest of the way lazyly
> > > 5th Gear - Never have tried to max out the car.. so I have no clue :)
> > >
> > > After Module-
> > > I can now pull to red very quickley and easily using gears
> > 1-4.. in 3rd and
> > > 4th you can feel the little rush come on at about 4000rpm.. don't ask me
> > > about 5th gear though.. still havn't tried to run 5th all the way to
> > > red..not enough road and too many cops :)
> > > the problem with low rpm enrichment is quite evident though..
> > if I get on
> > > the gas all the way in 3rd runing under 3500rpm, the car does
> > not pick up
> > > quite as quickley as it did without the power module.. I will
> > be hooking up
> > > a switch to my system soon, which will hopefullyl solve this quirk..
> > >
> > > CONCLUSION
> > > ============
> > >
> > > It's only $20.. what do you have to lose?
> > >
> > >
> > > Hope this helps.. if you need further assistance, don't
> > hesitate to e-mail
> > > me back
> > > Chris..
> > >
> > >
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> > >
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