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Knock Sensor Conversion - Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in andIamdisappointed, sorta...



Phew.... is it just me or is it HOT in this thread?


-----Original Message-----
From: scirocco-l-bounces@scirocco.org
[mailto:scirocco-l-bounces@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Brian McGarvey
Sent: October 2, 2003 8:06 PM
To: ATS - Patrick Bureau
Cc: 'Rob Calderwood'; Dan Bubb; '_Scirocco Mailing List'
Subject: RE: Knock Sensor Conversion - Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and
Iamdisappointed, sorta...



Uhm...
this was for me about me.
I said that I had an ABA distributor, dan followed up with a correction
about the actual functioning characteritics.  ie. 1 window not 4..

I wasnt poking at anybody but myself.
Brian

On Thu, 2 Oct 2003, ATS - Patrick Bureau wrote:

> hey brian, get off your horse, my question was legit and was not
information
> ( about how the distributor was built inside) included in his response
about
> the distributor, (before I said "why not?" read again buddy and leave the
> crack pipe alone abit...
>
> ATS - Patrick Bureau - txrocco@sbcglobal.net
> ----------------------------------------------
> MSN:ATSGTX@hotmail.com |YAHOO:ATSGTX@yahoo.com
> ICQ:32918816           |AIM:Texasscirocco
> ----------------------------------------------
>
>
> =>-----Original Message-----
> =>From: scirocco-l-bounces@scirocco.org
> =>[mailto:scirocco-l-bounces@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Brian McGarvey
> =>Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 9:57 PM
> =>To: Dan Bubb
> =>Cc: '_Scirocco Mailing List'; 'Rob Calderwood'; Patrick Bureau
> =>Subject: Re: Knock Sensor Conversion - Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and
> =>Iamdisappointed, sorta...
> =>
> =>
> =>well just goes to show that you should finish reading the list before
> =>injecting your two freaking cents...
> =>brian
> =>
> =>
> =>On Thu, 2 Oct 2003, Dan Bubb wrote:
> =>
> =>> You can't use the ABA distributor because it has only one
> =>window, instead of
> =>> four, in the hall sensor trigger. The ABA distributor is really a cam
> =>> position sensor, it triggers only once every two engine
> =>revolutions(i.e. it
> =>> lets the ECU know the next ignition event is #1). The ABA gets
> =>it's ignition
> =>> timing from a multi tooth wheel just inboard of the 5th main
> =>bearing on the
> =>> crankshaft.
> =>> The 3A is obviously conventional if you're using it, but it's
> =>no big deal to
> =>> use the RD/HT distributor with the TT adapter.
> =>> Dan
> =>>
> =>> ----- Original Message -----
> =>> From: Patrick Bureau <txrocco@sbcglobal.net>
> =>> To: Mark <mardak@cogeco.ca>; 'Rob Calderwood'
> =><robcalderwood1@charter.net>;
> =>> '_Scirocco Mailing List' <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> =>> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 5:44 PM
> =>> Subject: RE: Knock Sensor Conversion - Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and
> =>> Iamdisappointed, sorta...
> =>>
> =>>
> =>> > you can use tha BA Adfistributor for the ABA engine, and why not?
> =>> > I am using the 3a Distributor for my 3a/jh hybrid without a
problem..
> =>> >
> =>> >
> =>> > Mark <mardak@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> =>> > You can't use the ABA distributor. IMHO the best solution is to buy
a
> =>> > new distributor from Techtonics especially for this swap. I went
this
> =>> > route and don't regret it one bit...
> =>> >
> =>> > Mark.
> =>> > 80 S
> =>> > 81 S ABA/JH/4K
> =>> >
> =>> > > -----Original Message-----
> =>> > > From: scirocco-l-bounces@scirocco.org [mailto:scirocco-l-
> =>> > > bounces@scirocco.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Bureau
> =>> > > Sent: October 2, 2003 4:35 PM
> =>> > > To: Rob Calderwood; _Scirocco Mailing List
> =>> > > Subject: Re: Knock Sensor Conversion - Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I
> =>> > > amdisappointed, sorta...
> =>> > >
> =>> > > dont waste time with the TT JH-> 3a distributor plate its
> =>not worth it
> =>> > ,
> =>> > > get a 3a/aba distributor (you will not regret it I swear it on my
> =>> > parents
> =>> > > head)
> =>> > >
> =>> > > I had trouble like no one when I did the JH distributor with
adaptor
> =>> > > plate, slap a aba distributor and you will have a smooth operating
> =>> > engine.
> =>> > >
> =>> > >
> =>> > > Rob Calderwood wrote:
> =>> > > Hi guys, I have been reading this discussion with great
> =>interest since
> =>> > I
> =>> > > have an ABA swap in the works for my '85 8V Scirocco. I am
> =>keeping my
> =>> > JH
> =>> > > head and plan on converting to KS ignition. I purchased the
> =>conversion
> =>> > > parts
> =>> > > for plugging the extra holes in the block and the distributor gear
> =>> > from
> =>> > > TT,
> =>> > > but have not bought the KS parts yet. I have looked around the web
> =>> > > including
> =>> > > the DriversFound site, but I am not totally clear on all the parts
I
> =>> > need:
> =>> > >
> =>> > > CIS-E distributor
> =>> > > Knock Senor
> =>> > > KS Control Unit
> =>> > > Wiring
> =>> > > TB Switch
> =>> > >
> =>> > > I think I keep my old CIS control box, but not sure.
> =>> > > Any other sources on this subject?
> =>> > > Thanks,
> =>> > > Rob
> =>> > >
> =>> > > ----- Original Message -----
> =>> > > From: "Dan Bubb"
> =>> > > To: "Mike Potter"
> =>> > > ; "Patrick Bureau"
> =>> > > ; "_Scirocco Mailing List"
> =>> > > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 9:15 AM
> =>> > > Subject: Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed, sorta...
> =>> > >
> =>> > >
> =>> > > > Back in the day when I had CIS I just set the CIS WOT switch
right
> =>> > on
> =>> > > top
> =>> > > of
> =>> > > > the KS WOT switch. Maybe a dumb way to do it but it worked.
> =>> > > > Strangely enough the weight of that additional little switch was
> =>> > enough
> =>> > > to
> =>> > > > break the switch bracket several times before I welded a
> =>1/4" thick
> =>> > bar
> =>> > > > across it. It was ugly! Big old heavy bracket and a bunch
> =>of switch
> =>> > > wires.
> =>> > > > Dan
> =>> > > >
> =>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> =>> > > > From: "Mike Potter"
> =>> > >
> =>> > > > To: "Dan Bubb" ; "Patrick Bureau"
> =>> > > > ; "_Scirocco Mailing List"
> =>> > >
> =>> > > > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 11:56 AM
> =>> > > > Subject: RE: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed, sorta...
> =>> > > >
> =>> > > >
> =>> > > > > Dan, I was going to suggest the same thing. That's how mine is
> =>> > wired.
> =>> > > Got
> =>> > > > > to do it as the CIS-E Switches send a positive signal but the
> =>> > older
> =>> > > Lamda
> =>> > > > > control units need a ground to go WOT. Switch the current(via
> =>> > relay) &
> =>> > > > your
> =>> > > > > in biz!
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > > > Patrick, If I had a head or $800 to spare I'd hand it
over....If
> =>> > you
> =>> > > have
> =>> > > > > one in the works it will help out. Those motors need it to
> =>> > breathe.
> =>> > > Still
> =>> > > > > that thing it a torque monster! 118lbs of torque!...my 1.8 8v
is
> =>> > only
> =>> > > > > getting 111.
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > > > Good luck...
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > > > ****When replying please copy in any original text that we
have
> =>> > been
> =>> > > > > previously discussing, Thank you!***
> =>> > > > > Mike Potter
> =>> > > > > Virtual World Parts Inc.
> =>> > > > > Sales@parts4vws.com
> =>> > > > > 909-694-8600x103
> =>> > > > > 888-389-7278x103
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> =>> > > > > From: scirocco-l-bounces@scirocco.org
> =>> > > > > [mailto:scirocco-l-bounces@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Dan Bubb
> =>> > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 8:27 AM
> =>> > > > > To: Patrick Bureau; _Scirocco Mailing List
> =>> > > > > Subject: Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed, sorta...
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > > > Well, they aren't used by the KS ignition, but the CIS ecu
still
> =>> > needs
> =>> > > > them.
> =>> > > > > Do me a huge favor.
> =>> > > > > Splice into the voilet wire that runs from the KS WOT switch
to
> =>> > pin 8
> =>> > > on
> =>> > > > the
> =>> > > > > KS ecu. This wire should have 12V when the switch is
> =>tripped. Run
> =>> > the
> =>> > > wire
> =>> > > > > from the splice to a small relay. Connect it to the relay
coil.
> =>> > Ground
> =>> > > the
> =>> > > > > other side of the relay coil. Now take the two wires
> =>that used to
> =>> > go
> =>> > > to
> =>> > > > the
> =>> > > > > old WOT switch and connect them to the two contacts on the
relay
> =>> > that
> =>> > > are
> =>> > > > > shorted when the relay is activated.
> =>> > > > > shouldn't take you more than 10 minutes to rig this up
> =>for a quick
> =>> > > test.
> =>> > > > > Or better yet, just take the two wires that used to go
> =>to the old
> =>> > WOT
> =>> > > > > switch. Short them together. With the engine idling the idle
> =>> > should
> =>> > > > improve
> =>> > > > > slightly when they are shorted. Anyway, short them
> =>together and go
> =>> > for
> =>> > > a
> =>> > > > > test drive and see if the engine has more power.
> =>> > > > > If that works rig up the relay.
> =>> > > > > LMK
> =>> > > > > Dan
> =>> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> =>> > > > > From: Patrick Bureau
> =>> > > > > To: Dan Bubb ; _Scirocco Mailing List
> =>> > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 11:10 AM
> =>> > > > > Subject: Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed, sorta...
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > > > no where.
> =>> > > > > patched and laying in tray, I assumed these whe no
> =>longer used by
> =>> > the
> =>> > > > ecu
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > > > Dan Bubb wrote:
> =>> > > > > OK. That addresses the KS ignition switches.
> =>> > > > > What about the wires that went to the WOT switch that
> =>was on your
> =>> > > car
> =>> > > > > before
> =>> > > > > you swapped to the Audi 5000 throttle body?
> =>> > > > > Where are they connected?
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> =>> > > > > From: "Patrick Bureau"
> =>> > > > > To: "Dan Bubb" ; "_Scirocco Mailing List"
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 10:55 AM
> =>> > > > > Subject: Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed, sorta...
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > > > > I used this diagram install the knock box and
> =>switches to my car
> =>> > > > > >
> =>> > > > > htm>
> =>> > > > > >
> =>> > > > > > Dan Bubb wrote:
> =>> > > > > > So, Patrick!
> =>> > > > > > What exactly did you do with the wires that ran to the CIS
WOT
> =>> > > > switch
> =>> > > > > when
> =>> > > > > > you did your conversion and added the KS ignition?
> =>> > > > > > Dan
> =>> > > > > >
> =>> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> =>> > > > > > From: "ATS - Patrick Bureau"
> =>> > > > > > To: "Dan Bubb" ; "_Scirocco Mailing List"
> =>> > > > > >
> =>> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 11:13 PM
> =>> > > > > > Subject: RE: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed,
sorta...
> =>> > > > > >
> =>> > > > > >
> =>> > > > > > > Mr Potter : headwork... yes I know... got 800$ to
> =>spare ? hehe
> =>> > I
> =>> > > > am
> =>> > > > > > working
> =>> > > > > > > on saving the cash for a full blow reworked head (ie:
racing
> =>> > > > specs)
> =>> > > > > > >
> =>> > > > > > > Dan: as always Appreciate your inputs (even if we diagree
> =>> > about
> =>> > > > that
> =>> > > > > > 8v/16v
> =>> > > > > > > thing eheh)
> =>> > > > > > >
> =>> > > > > > > 1. the TB is audi5000, I use CIS-Lambda with 16v Knock
> =>> > > sensor/box,
> =>> > > > > and
> =>> > > > > > this
> =>> > > > > > > included the 16v TB switches setup (2 switches),you
> =>may be on
> =>> > to
> =>> > > > > somthing
> =>> > > > > > > about the fuel mix, (It hink it may be fuel pressure and
wil
> =>> > > check
> =>> > > > > that
> =>> > > > > > > soon), but enrichment switch.. humm. wil have to test the
> =>> > > switches
> =>> > > > > to
> =>> > > > > see
> =>> > > > > > if
> =>> > > > > > > one failed on me. good point
> =>> > > > > > >
> =>> > > > > > > 2. the fuel/air mix is not 15:1 , but close (14.8:1
average)
> =>> > and
> =>> > > I
> =>> > > > > see
> =>> > > > > > your
> =>> > > > > > > point.
> =>> > > > > > >
> =>> > > > > > > 3. I am working on geting a head reworked, as for
> =>springs, if
> =>> > I
> =>> > > > did
> =>> > > > > go
> =>> > > > > > > 268-272 cam would I need to change for HD ?
> =>> > > > > > >
> =>> > > > > > >
> =>> > > > > > > ATS - Patrick Bureau - txrocco@sbcglobal.net
> =>> > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------
> =>> > > > > > > MSN:ATSGTX@hotmail.com |YAHOO:ATSGTX@yahoo.com
> =>> > > > > > > ICQ:32918816 |AIM:Texasscirocco
> =>> > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------
> =>> > > > > > >
> =>> > > > > > >
> =>> > > > > > > =>-----Original Message-----
> =>> > > > > > > =>From: Dan Bubb [mailto:jdbubb@ix.netcom.com]
> =>> > > > > > > =>Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 6:18 PM
> =>> > > > > > > =>To: ATS - Patrick Bureau; _Scirocco Mailing List
> =>> > > > > > > =>Subject: Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed,
> =>> > sorta...
> =>> > > > > > > =>
> =>> > > > > > > =>
> =>> > > > > > > =>Personally, I thought you'd be 115-118 HP so this is a
> =>> > > suprise!
> =>> > > > > > > =>There's really no way to compare my engine to
> =>yours because
> =>> > of
> =>> > > > > > > =>the Haltech,
> =>> > > > > > > =>but I still have some input (don't I always!)
> =>> > > > > > > =>A week ago I was going to suggest you include A/F ratio
in
> =>> > > your
> =>> > > > > > > =>runs, but I
> =>> > > > > > > =>see you have. There's a huge clue right there!
> =>Dead on 15:1
> =>> > > > across
> =>> > > > > the
> =>> > > > > > > =>board! CIS is awesome it can hold stoichometric so
> =>> > accurately!
> =>> > > > > > > =>Now, (this is Dan the Parent!) how many times did I give
> =>> > input
> =>> > > > on
> =>> > > > > > > =>setting up
> =>> > > > > > > =>your CIS WOT switch???? If you're running at 15:1
> =>then your
> =>> > > > switch
> =>> > > > > isn't
> =>> > > > > > > =>triggering or there is some problem with the wiring or
> =>> > > > something.
> =>> > > > > Your
> =>> > > > > > > =>engine is constantly running closed loop. With the
switch
> =>> > it'd
> =>> > > > go
> =>> > > > > > > =>open loop
> =>> > > > > > > =>and drop to mid 13:1 (I presume). Now we talked briefly
> =>> > about
> =>> > > > > > > =>this at Cincy,
> =>> > > > > > > =>but the KS ignition WOT switch is not the CIS WOT
> =>switch and
> =>> > > as
> =>> > > > > far as
> =>> > > > > I
> =>> > > > > > > =>know they don't have any interconnection, but
> =>whatever, your
> =>> > > CIS
> =>> > > > > > > =>WOT switch
> =>> > > > > > > =>is clearly not working or connected.
> =>> > > > > > > =>So, step one is get the frigging WOT switch wired and
> =>> > working.
> =>> > > I
> =>> > > > > > > =>bet that'd
> =>> > > > > > > =>give you 5-10 HP right there.
> =>> > > > > > > =>The next items that come to mind are:
> =>> > > > > > > =>1) head, the stock GTI head just isn't that high flow.
You
> =>> > > need
> =>> > > > a
> =>> > > > > ported
> =>> > > > > > > =>head to start making big power with the 8V (one friggen
> =>> > smart
> =>> > > > > > > =>crack from the
> =>> > > > > > > =>16V guys! Just one!). Not sure if a cam will do
> =>much without
> =>> > > the
> =>> > > > > > > =>head work.
> =>> > > > > > > =>My recollection (this is Dan the old fart speaking) when
I
> =>> > was
> =>> > > > > running
> =>> > > > > a
> =>> > > > > > > =>stock head going to a bigger cam with the 2.0 just
gutted
> =>> > the
> =>> > > > > bottom
> =>> > > > > end
> =>> > > > > > > =>without adding anything to the top. I have no
> =>objective data
> =>> > > and
> =>> > > > > the
> =>> > > > > > butt
> =>> > > > > > > =>dyno is a notorious lier, so take that as you wish.
> =>> > > > > > > =>2) cam. The G grind is a good mild cam. You want an 8V
to
> =>> > make
> =>> > > > > power
> =>> > > > > you
> =>> > > > > > > =>need something that'll make your idle good and lumpy.
272,
> =>> > > 280!
> =>> > > > > > > =>They do hurt
> =>> > > > > > > =>the bottom end, but the 2.0 can loose some bottom end
and
> =>> > > still
> =>> > > > > have
> =>> > > > > > > =>terrific off the line acceleration.
> =>> > > > > > > =>3)why the hell are you running a 16V KS box? A
> =>16V isn't an
> =>> > 8V
> =>> > > > and
> =>> > > > > the
> =>> > > > > > > =>ignition curve is undoubtedly different. Despite
> =>your mods I
> =>> > > > think
> =>> > > > > you
> =>> > > > > > > =>should be running an 8V KS box. Just my opinion.
> =>> > > > > > > =>My exhaust, flywheel, fuel pumps, CR are the
substantially
> =>> > the
> =>> > > > > > > =>same as yours
> =>> > > > > > > =>and they support alot more HP so those aren't a big
issue
> =>> > for
> =>> > > > > upgrade.
> =>> > > > > > > =>Maybe I'll think of more later.
> =>> > > > > > > =>I bet you could work out the CIS WOT switch
> =>before you go to
> =>> > > > work
> =>> > > > > > > =>tomorrow.
> =>> > > > > > > =>There's a noticable difference!
> =>> > > > > > > =>HTH!
> =>> > > > > > > =>Dan
> =>> > > > > > > =>
> =>> > > > > > > =>
> =>> > > > > > > =>
> =>> > > > > > > =>----- Original Message -----
> =>> > > > > > > =>From: ATS - Patrick Bureau
> =>> > > > > > > =>To: _Scirocco Mailing List
> =>> > > > > > > =>Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 4:01 PM
> =>> > > > > > > =>Subject: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed,
sorta...
> =>> > > > > > > =>
> =>> > > > > > > =>
> =>> > > > > > > =>> alright after all my work here is the results I
> =>got for my
> =>> > > > > 8v....
> =>> > > > > > > =>>
> =>> > > > > > > =>> Best run 97.9HP @ 5200 RPM with 118.9 ft torque @ 3100
> =>> > RPM,
> =>> > > > > dwell
> =>> > > > > set
> =>> > > > > > at
> =>> > > > > > > =>60'
> =>> > > > > > > =>> and timing at 14' idle, 28' @ 3000 rpm.
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > > > ATS - Patrick Bureau - txrocco@sbcglobal.net
> =>> > > > > '85 2.0L Prowler Orange, Kamei X1 Rocco
> =>> > > > > '84 1.8L Silver Restoration and '83 Rocco Trailer Project
> =>> > > > > _______________________________________________
> =>> > > > > Scirocco-l mailing list
> =>> > > > > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> =>> > > > > http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > > >
> =>> > > >
> =>> > > >
> =>> > > >
> =>> > > > _______________________________________________
> =>> > > > Scirocco-l mailing list
> =>> > > > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> =>> > > > http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> =>> > >
> =>> > >
> =>> > > _______________________________________________
> =>> > > Scirocco-l mailing list
> =>> > > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> =>> > > http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> =>> > >
> =>> > > ATS - Patrick Bureau - txrocco@sbcglobal.net
> =>> > > '85 2.0L Prowler Orange, Kamei X1 Rocco
> =>> > > '84 1.8L Silver Restoration and '83 Rocco Trailer Project
> =>> > >
> =>> > >
> =>> > > _______________________________________________
> =>> > > Scirocco-l mailing list
> =>> > > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> =>> > > http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> =>> >
> =>> >
> =>> > ATS - Patrick Bureau - txrocco@sbcglobal.net
> =>> > '85 2.0L Prowler Orange, Kamei X1 Rocco
> =>> > '84 1.8L Silver Restoration and '83 Rocco Trailer Project
> =>> >
> =>> >
> =>> > _______________________________________________
> =>> > Scirocco-l mailing list
> =>> > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> =>> > http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> =>>
> =>>
> =>>
> =>> _______________________________________________
> =>> Scirocco-l mailing list
> =>> Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> =>> http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
> =>>
> =>
> =>--
> =>-------------------------------------------------------------
> =>Brian
> =>88 16v $2004 GRM challenge car http://www.grmotorsports.com
> =>84 0v Next years car? mid engine... maybe we'll see
> =>82 0v Black 16v kit --parts
> =>82 2.0L Topless bunny -- Knock Ignition and bigger clutch. next.
> =>90 90q20v doing daily driver duty.
> =>91 VFR750F everybody needs a 11-12 sec vehicle.
> =>
> =>Contact method. Email me for AIM, ICQ, YahooIM, IRC, etc.
> =>-------------------------------------------------------------
> =>
> =>
> =>_______________________________________________
> =>Scirocco-l mailing list
> =>Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> =>http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
>

--
-------------------------------------------------------------
Brian
88 16v $2004 GRM challenge car http://www.grmotorsports.com
84 0v Next years car? mid engine... maybe we'll see
82 0v Black 16v kit --parts
82 2.0L Topless bunny -- Knock Ignition and bigger clutch. next.
90 90q20v doing daily driver duty.
91 VFR750F everybody needs a 11-12 sec vehicle.

Contact method. Email me for AIM, ICQ, YahooIM, IRC, etc.
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