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Knock Sensor Conversion - Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in andIamdisappointed, sorta...



hey brian, get off your horse, my question was legit and was not information
( about how the distributor was built inside) included in his response about
the distributor, (before I said "why not?" read again buddy and leave the
crack pipe alone abit...

ATS - Patrick Bureau - txrocco@sbcglobal.net
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MSN:ATSGTX@hotmail.com |YAHOO:ATSGTX@yahoo.com
ICQ:32918816           |AIM:Texasscirocco
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=>-----Original Message-----
=>From: scirocco-l-bounces@scirocco.org
=>[mailto:scirocco-l-bounces@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Brian McGarvey
=>Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 9:57 PM
=>To: Dan Bubb
=>Cc: '_Scirocco Mailing List'; 'Rob Calderwood'; Patrick Bureau
=>Subject: Re: Knock Sensor Conversion - Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and
=>Iamdisappointed, sorta...
=>
=>
=>well just goes to show that you should finish reading the list before
=>injecting your two freaking cents...
=>brian
=>
=>
=>On Thu, 2 Oct 2003, Dan Bubb wrote:
=>
=>> You can't use the ABA distributor because it has only one
=>window, instead of
=>> four, in the hall sensor trigger. The ABA distributor is really a cam
=>> position sensor, it triggers only once every two engine
=>revolutions(i.e. it
=>> lets the ECU know the next ignition event is #1). The ABA gets
=>it's ignition
=>> timing from a multi tooth wheel just inboard of the 5th main
=>bearing on the
=>> crankshaft.
=>> The 3A is obviously conventional if you're using it, but it's
=>no big deal to
=>> use the RD/HT distributor with the TT adapter.
=>> Dan
=>>
=>> ----- Original Message -----
=>> From: Patrick Bureau <txrocco@sbcglobal.net>
=>> To: Mark <mardak@cogeco.ca>; 'Rob Calderwood'
=><robcalderwood1@charter.net>;
=>> '_Scirocco Mailing List' <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
=>> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 5:44 PM
=>> Subject: RE: Knock Sensor Conversion - Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and
=>> Iamdisappointed, sorta...
=>>
=>>
=>> > you can use tha BA Adfistributor for the ABA engine, and why not?
=>> > I am using the 3a Distributor for my 3a/jh hybrid without a problem..
=>> >
=>> >
=>> > Mark <mardak@cogeco.ca> wrote:
=>> > You can't use the ABA distributor. IMHO the best solution is to buy a
=>> > new distributor from Techtonics especially for this swap. I went this
=>> > route and don't regret it one bit...
=>> >
=>> > Mark.
=>> > 80 S
=>> > 81 S ABA/JH/4K
=>> >
=>> > > -----Original Message-----
=>> > > From: scirocco-l-bounces@scirocco.org [mailto:scirocco-l-
=>> > > bounces@scirocco.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Bureau
=>> > > Sent: October 2, 2003 4:35 PM
=>> > > To: Rob Calderwood; _Scirocco Mailing List
=>> > > Subject: Re: Knock Sensor Conversion - Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I
=>> > > amdisappointed, sorta...
=>> > >
=>> > > dont waste time with the TT JH-> 3a distributor plate its
=>not worth it
=>> > ,
=>> > > get a 3a/aba distributor (you will not regret it I swear it on my
=>> > parents
=>> > > head)
=>> > >
=>> > > I had trouble like no one when I did the JH distributor with adaptor
=>> > > plate, slap a aba distributor and you will have a smooth operating
=>> > engine.
=>> > >
=>> > >
=>> > > Rob Calderwood wrote:
=>> > > Hi guys, I have been reading this discussion with great
=>interest since
=>> > I
=>> > > have an ABA swap in the works for my '85 8V Scirocco. I am
=>keeping my
=>> > JH
=>> > > head and plan on converting to KS ignition. I purchased the
=>conversion
=>> > > parts
=>> > > for plugging the extra holes in the block and the distributor gear
=>> > from
=>> > > TT,
=>> > > but have not bought the KS parts yet. I have looked around the web
=>> > > including
=>> > > the DriversFound site, but I am not totally clear on all the parts I
=>> > need:
=>> > >
=>> > > CIS-E distributor
=>> > > Knock Senor
=>> > > KS Control Unit
=>> > > Wiring
=>> > > TB Switch
=>> > >
=>> > > I think I keep my old CIS control box, but not sure.
=>> > > Any other sources on this subject?
=>> > > Thanks,
=>> > > Rob
=>> > >
=>> > > ----- Original Message -----
=>> > > From: "Dan Bubb"
=>> > > To: "Mike Potter"
=>> > > ; "Patrick Bureau"
=>> > > ; "_Scirocco Mailing List"
=>> > > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 9:15 AM
=>> > > Subject: Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed, sorta...
=>> > >
=>> > >
=>> > > > Back in the day when I had CIS I just set the CIS WOT switch right
=>> > on
=>> > > top
=>> > > of
=>> > > > the KS WOT switch. Maybe a dumb way to do it but it worked.
=>> > > > Strangely enough the weight of that additional little switch was
=>> > enough
=>> > > to
=>> > > > break the switch bracket several times before I welded a
=>1/4" thick
=>> > bar
=>> > > > across it. It was ugly! Big old heavy bracket and a bunch
=>of switch
=>> > > wires.
=>> > > > Dan
=>> > > >
=>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
=>> > > > From: "Mike Potter"
=>> > >
=>> > > > To: "Dan Bubb" ; "Patrick Bureau"
=>> > > > ; "_Scirocco Mailing List"
=>> > >
=>> > > > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 11:56 AM
=>> > > > Subject: RE: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed, sorta...
=>> > > >
=>> > > >
=>> > > > > Dan, I was going to suggest the same thing. That's how mine is
=>> > wired.
=>> > > Got
=>> > > > > to do it as the CIS-E Switches send a positive signal but the
=>> > older
=>> > > Lamda
=>> > > > > control units need a ground to go WOT. Switch the current(via
=>> > relay) &
=>> > > > your
=>> > > > > in biz!
=>> > > > >
=>> > > > > Patrick, If I had a head or $800 to spare I'd hand it over....If
=>> > you
=>> > > have
=>> > > > > one in the works it will help out. Those motors need it to
=>> > breathe.
=>> > > Still
=>> > > > > that thing it a torque monster! 118lbs of torque!...my 1.8 8v is
=>> > only
=>> > > > > getting 111.
=>> > > > >
=>> > > > > Good luck...
=>> > > > >
=>> > > > > ****When replying please copy in any original text that we have
=>> > been
=>> > > > > previously discussing, Thank you!***
=>> > > > > Mike Potter
=>> > > > > Virtual World Parts Inc.
=>> > > > > Sales@parts4vws.com
=>> > > > > 909-694-8600x103
=>> > > > > 888-389-7278x103
=>> > > > >
=>> > > > > -----Original Message-----
=>> > > > > From: scirocco-l-bounces@scirocco.org
=>> > > > > [mailto:scirocco-l-bounces@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Dan Bubb
=>> > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 8:27 AM
=>> > > > > To: Patrick Bureau; _Scirocco Mailing List
=>> > > > > Subject: Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed, sorta...
=>> > > > >
=>> > > > >
=>> > > > > Well, they aren't used by the KS ignition, but the CIS ecu still
=>> > needs
=>> > > > them.
=>> > > > > Do me a huge favor.
=>> > > > > Splice into the voilet wire that runs from the KS WOT switch to
=>> > pin 8
=>> > > on
=>> > > > the
=>> > > > > KS ecu. This wire should have 12V when the switch is
=>tripped. Run
=>> > the
=>> > > wire
=>> > > > > from the splice to a small relay. Connect it to the relay coil.
=>> > Ground
=>> > > the
=>> > > > > other side of the relay coil. Now take the two wires
=>that used to
=>> > go
=>> > > to
=>> > > > the
=>> > > > > old WOT switch and connect them to the two contacts on the relay
=>> > that
=>> > > are
=>> > > > > shorted when the relay is activated.
=>> > > > > shouldn't take you more than 10 minutes to rig this up
=>for a quick
=>> > > test.
=>> > > > > Or better yet, just take the two wires that used to go
=>to the old
=>> > WOT
=>> > > > > switch. Short them together. With the engine idling the idle
=>> > should
=>> > > > improve
=>> > > > > slightly when they are shorted. Anyway, short them
=>together and go
=>> > for
=>> > > a
=>> > > > > test drive and see if the engine has more power.
=>> > > > > If that works rig up the relay.
=>> > > > > LMK
=>> > > > > Dan
=>> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
=>> > > > > From: Patrick Bureau
=>> > > > > To: Dan Bubb ; _Scirocco Mailing List
=>> > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 11:10 AM
=>> > > > > Subject: Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed, sorta...
=>> > > > >
=>> > > > >
=>> > > > > no where.
=>> > > > > patched and laying in tray, I assumed these whe no
=>longer used by
=>> > the
=>> > > > ecu
=>> > > > >
=>> > > > > Dan Bubb wrote:
=>> > > > > OK. That addresses the KS ignition switches.
=>> > > > > What about the wires that went to the WOT switch that
=>was on your
=>> > > car
=>> > > > > before
=>> > > > > you swapped to the Audi 5000 throttle body?
=>> > > > > Where are they connected?
=>> > > > >
=>> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
=>> > > > > From: "Patrick Bureau"
=>> > > > > To: "Dan Bubb" ; "_Scirocco Mailing List"
=>> > > > >
=>> > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 10:55 AM
=>> > > > > Subject: Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed, sorta...
=>> > > > >
=>> > > > >
=>> > > > > > I used this diagram install the knock box and
=>switches to my car
=>> > > > > >
=>> > > > > htm>
=>> > > > > >
=>> > > > > > Dan Bubb wrote:
=>> > > > > > So, Patrick!
=>> > > > > > What exactly did you do with the wires that ran to the CIS WOT
=>> > > > switch
=>> > > > > when
=>> > > > > > you did your conversion and added the KS ignition?
=>> > > > > > Dan
=>> > > > > >
=>> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
=>> > > > > > From: "ATS - Patrick Bureau"
=>> > > > > > To: "Dan Bubb" ; "_Scirocco Mailing List"
=>> > > > > >
=>> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 11:13 PM
=>> > > > > > Subject: RE: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed, sorta...
=>> > > > > >
=>> > > > > >
=>> > > > > > > Mr Potter : headwork... yes I know... got 800$ to
=>spare ? hehe
=>> > I
=>> > > > am
=>> > > > > > working
=>> > > > > > > on saving the cash for a full blow reworked head (ie: racing
=>> > > > specs)
=>> > > > > > >
=>> > > > > > > Dan: as always Appreciate your inputs (even if we diagree
=>> > about
=>> > > > that
=>> > > > > > 8v/16v
=>> > > > > > > thing eheh)
=>> > > > > > >
=>> > > > > > > 1. the TB is audi5000, I use CIS-Lambda with 16v Knock
=>> > > sensor/box,
=>> > > > > and
=>> > > > > > this
=>> > > > > > > included the 16v TB switches setup (2 switches),you
=>may be on
=>> > to
=>> > > > > somthing
=>> > > > > > > about the fuel mix, (It hink it may be fuel pressure and wil
=>> > > check
=>> > > > > that
=>> > > > > > > soon), but enrichment switch.. humm. wil have to test the
=>> > > switches
=>> > > > > to
=>> > > > > see
=>> > > > > > if
=>> > > > > > > one failed on me. good point
=>> > > > > > >
=>> > > > > > > 2. the fuel/air mix is not 15:1 , but close (14.8:1 average)
=>> > and
=>> > > I
=>> > > > > see
=>> > > > > > your
=>> > > > > > > point.
=>> > > > > > >
=>> > > > > > > 3. I am working on geting a head reworked, as for
=>springs, if
=>> > I
=>> > > > did
=>> > > > > go
=>> > > > > > > 268-272 cam would I need to change for HD ?
=>> > > > > > >
=>> > > > > > >
=>> > > > > > > ATS - Patrick Bureau - txrocco@sbcglobal.net
=>> > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------
=>> > > > > > > MSN:ATSGTX@hotmail.com |YAHOO:ATSGTX@yahoo.com
=>> > > > > > > ICQ:32918816 |AIM:Texasscirocco
=>> > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------
=>> > > > > > >
=>> > > > > > >
=>> > > > > > > =>-----Original Message-----
=>> > > > > > > =>From: Dan Bubb [mailto:jdbubb@ix.netcom.com]
=>> > > > > > > =>Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 6:18 PM
=>> > > > > > > =>To: ATS - Patrick Bureau; _Scirocco Mailing List
=>> > > > > > > =>Subject: Re: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed,
=>> > sorta...
=>> > > > > > > =>
=>> > > > > > > =>
=>> > > > > > > =>Personally, I thought you'd be 115-118 HP so this is a
=>> > > suprise!
=>> > > > > > > =>There's really no way to compare my engine to
=>yours because
=>> > of
=>> > > > > > > =>the Haltech,
=>> > > > > > > =>but I still have some input (don't I always!)
=>> > > > > > > =>A week ago I was going to suggest you include A/F ratio in
=>> > > your
=>> > > > > > > =>runs, but I
=>> > > > > > > =>see you have. There's a huge clue right there!
=>Dead on 15:1
=>> > > > across
=>> > > > > the
=>> > > > > > > =>board! CIS is awesome it can hold stoichometric so
=>> > accurately!
=>> > > > > > > =>Now, (this is Dan the Parent!) how many times did I give
=>> > input
=>> > > > on
=>> > > > > > > =>setting up
=>> > > > > > > =>your CIS WOT switch???? If you're running at 15:1
=>then your
=>> > > > switch
=>> > > > > isn't
=>> > > > > > > =>triggering or there is some problem with the wiring or
=>> > > > something.
=>> > > > > Your
=>> > > > > > > =>engine is constantly running closed loop. With the switch
=>> > it'd
=>> > > > go
=>> > > > > > > =>open loop
=>> > > > > > > =>and drop to mid 13:1 (I presume). Now we talked briefly
=>> > about
=>> > > > > > > =>this at Cincy,
=>> > > > > > > =>but the KS ignition WOT switch is not the CIS WOT
=>switch and
=>> > > as
=>> > > > > far as
=>> > > > > I
=>> > > > > > > =>know they don't have any interconnection, but
=>whatever, your
=>> > > CIS
=>> > > > > > > =>WOT switch
=>> > > > > > > =>is clearly not working or connected.
=>> > > > > > > =>So, step one is get the frigging WOT switch wired and
=>> > working.
=>> > > I
=>> > > > > > > =>bet that'd
=>> > > > > > > =>give you 5-10 HP right there.
=>> > > > > > > =>The next items that come to mind are:
=>> > > > > > > =>1) head, the stock GTI head just isn't that high flow. You
=>> > > need
=>> > > > a
=>> > > > > ported
=>> > > > > > > =>head to start making big power with the 8V (one friggen
=>> > smart
=>> > > > > > > =>crack from the
=>> > > > > > > =>16V guys! Just one!). Not sure if a cam will do
=>much without
=>> > > the
=>> > > > > > > =>head work.
=>> > > > > > > =>My recollection (this is Dan the old fart speaking) when I
=>> > was
=>> > > > > running
=>> > > > > a
=>> > > > > > > =>stock head going to a bigger cam with the 2.0 just gutted
=>> > the
=>> > > > > bottom
=>> > > > > end
=>> > > > > > > =>without adding anything to the top. I have no
=>objective data
=>> > > and
=>> > > > > the
=>> > > > > > butt
=>> > > > > > > =>dyno is a notorious lier, so take that as you wish.
=>> > > > > > > =>2) cam. The G grind is a good mild cam. You want an 8V to
=>> > make
=>> > > > > power
=>> > > > > you
=>> > > > > > > =>need something that'll make your idle good and lumpy. 272,
=>> > > 280!
=>> > > > > > > =>They do hurt
=>> > > > > > > =>the bottom end, but the 2.0 can loose some bottom end and
=>> > > still
=>> > > > > have
=>> > > > > > > =>terrific off the line acceleration.
=>> > > > > > > =>3)why the hell are you running a 16V KS box? A
=>16V isn't an
=>> > 8V
=>> > > > and
=>> > > > > the
=>> > > > > > > =>ignition curve is undoubtedly different. Despite
=>your mods I
=>> > > > think
=>> > > > > you
=>> > > > > > > =>should be running an 8V KS box. Just my opinion.
=>> > > > > > > =>My exhaust, flywheel, fuel pumps, CR are the substantially
=>> > the
=>> > > > > > > =>same as yours
=>> > > > > > > =>and they support alot more HP so those aren't a big issue
=>> > for
=>> > > > > upgrade.
=>> > > > > > > =>Maybe I'll think of more later.
=>> > > > > > > =>I bet you could work out the CIS WOT switch
=>before you go to
=>> > > > work
=>> > > > > > > =>tomorrow.
=>> > > > > > > =>There's a noticable difference!
=>> > > > > > > =>HTH!
=>> > > > > > > =>Dan
=>> > > > > > > =>
=>> > > > > > > =>
=>> > > > > > > =>
=>> > > > > > > =>----- Original Message -----
=>> > > > > > > =>From: ATS - Patrick Bureau
=>> > > > > > > =>To: _Scirocco Mailing List
=>> > > > > > > =>Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 4:01 PM
=>> > > > > > > =>Subject: [TECH] 3a dyno in and I am disappointed, sorta...
=>> > > > > > > =>
=>> > > > > > > =>
=>> > > > > > > =>> alright after all my work here is the results I
=>got for my
=>> > > > > 8v....
=>> > > > > > > =>>
=>> > > > > > > =>> Best run 97.9HP @ 5200 RPM with 118.9 ft torque @ 3100
=>> > RPM,
=>> > > > > dwell
=>> > > > > set
=>> > > > > > at
=>> > > > > > > =>60'
=>> > > > > > > =>> and timing at 14' idle, 28' @ 3000 rpm.
=>> > > > >
=>> > > > >
=>> > > > >
=>> > > > >
=>> > > > >
=>> > > > > ATS - Patrick Bureau - txrocco@sbcglobal.net
=>> > > > > '85 2.0L Prowler Orange, Kamei X1 Rocco
=>> > > > > '84 1.8L Silver Restoration and '83 Rocco Trailer Project
=>> > > > > _______________________________________________
=>> > > > > Scirocco-l mailing list
=>> > > > > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
=>> > > > > http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
=>> > > > >
=>> > > > >
=>> > > >
=>> > > >
=>> > > >
=>> > > > _______________________________________________
=>> > > > Scirocco-l mailing list
=>> > > > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
=>> > > > http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
=>> > >
=>> > >
=>> > > _______________________________________________
=>> > > Scirocco-l mailing list
=>> > > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
=>> > > http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
=>> > >
=>> > > ATS - Patrick Bureau - txrocco@sbcglobal.net
=>> > > '85 2.0L Prowler Orange, Kamei X1 Rocco
=>> > > '84 1.8L Silver Restoration and '83 Rocco Trailer Project
=>> > >
=>> > >
=>> > > _______________________________________________
=>> > > Scirocco-l mailing list
=>> > > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
=>> > > http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
=>> >
=>> >
=>> > ATS - Patrick Bureau - txrocco@sbcglobal.net
=>> > '85 2.0L Prowler Orange, Kamei X1 Rocco
=>> > '84 1.8L Silver Restoration and '83 Rocco Trailer Project
=>> >
=>> >
=>> > _______________________________________________
=>> > Scirocco-l mailing list
=>> > Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
=>> > http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
=>>
=>>
=>>
=>> _______________________________________________
=>> Scirocco-l mailing list
=>> Scirocco-l@scirocco.org
=>> http://neubayern.net/mailman/listinfo/scirocco-l
=>>
=>
=>--
=>-------------------------------------------------------------
=>Brian
=>88 16v $2004 GRM challenge car http://www.grmotorsports.com
=>84 0v Next years car? mid engine... maybe we'll see
=>82 0v Black 16v kit --parts
=>82 2.0L Topless bunny -- Knock Ignition and bigger clutch. next.
=>90 90q20v doing daily driver duty.
=>91 VFR750F everybody needs a 11-12 sec vehicle.
=>
=>Contact method. Email me for AIM, ICQ, YahooIM, IRC, etc.
=>-------------------------------------------------------------
=>
=>
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