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RE: Twin 16v Motor pics and site

To: Rick Alexander <rick@brubakerbox.com>, scirocco-l@scirocco.org
Subject: RE: Twin 16v Motor pics and site
From: "Fry, Larry" <LEF@chem-tronics.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 17:52:53 -0800
Sender: owner-scirocco-l@scirocco.org
I'd like to respond, but I don't know how to delete the long, previous posts
that are attached.  Can anyone advise me?

Larry  sandiego16V

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Alexander [mailto:rick@brubakerbox.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 5:15 AM
To: scirocco-l@scirocco.org
Subject: Re: Twin 16v Motor pics and site


Ok, I get it. Then it would be a simple matter of changing the mechanical
advantage of the pedal to account for the second slave.

Rick Alexander
http://www.brubakerbox.com
http://clubs.hemmings.com/hams/
http://clubs.hemmings.com/vwsrus/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fry, Larry" <LEF@chem-tronics.com>
To: "Rick Alexander" <rick@brubakerbox.com>; "scirocco list"
<scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 4:05 PM
Subject: RE: Twin 16v Motor pics and site


> Rick-
>   If you double the MC area, the travel for the two slave cylinders would
> indeed stay the same as a normal system.  However, the force required to
> move that MC (this force coming from your leg) would double.
> There's no free lunch.  The law of mechanical advantage indicates that if
> you double the work (twice as many slaves moving the same distance against
> the same clutch pressures) you'll double the energy required to do it.
>
> Larry  sandiego16V
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Alexander [mailto:rick@brubakerbox.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 12:50 PM
> To: scirocco list
> Subject: Re: Twin 16v Motor pics and site
>
>
> No expert here but...
>
> If the area of the master were doubled for twice as many slaves, it seems
to
> me that the pressure required would be the same as would the travel
> distance. What do the hydraulic experts say? Is my understanding wrong?
>
> Rick Alexander
> http://www.brubakerbox.com
> http://clubs.hemmings.com/hams/
> http://clubs.hemmings.com/vwsrus/
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Allyn" <amalventano1@home.com>
> To: "Brian Wagner" <scirocco_88_16v@hotmail.com>; "scirocco list"
> <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 2:17 PM
> Subject: Re: Twin 16v Motor pics and site
>
>
> > Brian,
> >     The master clinder works on a slightly different principal. It deals
> > with an increase in pressure moreso than actually moving the caliper
> > pistons. In this case, the calipers are moving only about 1/16th of an
> inch.
> > The design is only meant to raise pressure on the caliper pistons, and
> > therefore force on the brake pads. There would be exactly the same
> pressure
> > on both pistons of the front/rear diagonal pair. If one caliper was
> jammed,
> > it wouldnt move, but would still have the same pressure (fluid) applied
to
> > it, where the non-jammed caliper of the pair would be the only one doing
> the
> > braking.
> >     This same situation compared to a clutch setup, where one pressure
> plate
> > may have slightly stronger springs compared with the other, more fluid
> would
> > flow to the slave on the 'easier' tranny, causing it to disengage before
> the
> > other.
> >     Also as you mentioned about the bore: yes, you would need 2x area of
> > bore surface in the master to get full travel on both clutches, yet this
> > creates another problem: you are now effectively hitting 2 clutches at
> once,
> > therefore the force you need to push clutch the pedal to the floor is
now
> 2x
> > (that would suck in traffic, heh).
> > Al
> >
> > Allyn Malventano, ETC(SS), USN
> > 87 Rieger GTO Scirocco 16v (daily driver, 170k, rocco #6) running - for
> now
> > 87 Jetta 8v Wolfsburg 2dr (daily driver, 260k, 0 rattles, original
clutch,
> > driveshafts, wheels :)
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Brian Wagner" <scirocco_88_16v@hotmail.com>
> > To: <amalventano1@home.com>
> > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 1:07 PM
> > Subject: Re: Twin 16v Motor pics and site
> >
> >
> > > I thought about it some more and in the example you sited each car
would
> > > need a 4 piston master cylinder for the brakes. The same princple
would
> > > apply for this, I believe the stroke and bore are the key. ( I know I
> > added
> > > bore now)
> > >
> > > Brian
> > >
> > > 87 16v
> > > 86 8v (parts car)
> > > 85 Wolfsburg (white coming to a garage near me soon)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Allyn" <amalventano1@home.com>
> > > >To: "Brian Wagner" <scirocco_88_16v@hotmail.com>
> > > >Subject: Re: Twin 16v Motor pics and site
> > > >Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:47:03 -0500
> > > >
> > > >the single piston on the master only moves x volume. this matches x
> > volume
> > > >in a single slave and moves the clutch lever. add another slave and
you
> > now
> > > >have 2x volume to fill. Is there some other way that they work that i
> am
> > > >missing perhaps?
> > > >Al
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Brian Wagner" <scirocco_88_16v@hotmail.com>
> > > >To: <amalventano1@home.com>
> > > >Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 12:42 PM
> > > >Subject: Re: Twin 16v Motor pics and site
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > why would each move 1/2 distance, the volumetric pressure being
> equal
> > in
> > > >the
> > > > > system and all?
> > > > >
> > > > > Brian
> > > > >
> > > > > 87 16v
> > > > > 86 8v (parts car)
> > > > > 85 Wolfsburg (white coming to a garage near me soon)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "Allyn" <amalventano1@home.com>
> > > > > >To: "Brian Wagner" <scirocco_88_16v@hotmail.com>,
> > > ><koabi@lazyslacker.com>,
> > > > > ><scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> > > > > >Subject: Re: Twin 16v Motor pics and site
> > > > > >Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:38:51 -0500
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Yes, but each clutch would move 1/2 the length. Also, if one had
> more
> > > > > >resistance than the other, only the one with less resistance
would
> > > >move.
> > > >We
> > > > > >would need some kind of dual poston master.
> > > > > >Al
> > > > > >
> > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >From: "Brian Wagner" <scirocco_88_16v@hotmail.com>
> > > > > >To: <koabi@lazyslacker.com>; <scirocco-l@scirocco.org>
> > > > > >Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 12:33 PM
> > > > > >Subject: RE: Twin 16v Motor pics and site
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > A single hydraulic clutch master could be used inconjunction
> with
> > 2
> > > > > >slaves,
> > > > > > > this would ensure equal clutch engagement to both t/m.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Brian
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 87 16v
> > > > > > > 86 8v (parts car)
> > > > > > > 85 Wolfsburg (white coming to a garage near me soon)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >From: "koabi brooks" <koabi@lazyslacker.com>
> > > > > > > >To: scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > > > > > > >Subject: RE: Twin 16v Motor pics  and site
> > > > > > > >Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:26:18 -0500
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >im skeptical about the power.  two engines 275 HP per = 2*275
> HP
> > > > > > > >total?  that seems wrong to me.  Anyone care to explain?  I
> > assumed
> > > > > > > >this bad boy has two trannys with some super huge linkage.
> > Someone
> > > > > > > >mentioned something about a hydrolic clutch, which leads me
to
> > > >believe
> > > > > > > >there would only be ONE tranny, but that makes no sense to
me.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >englighten me please :)
> > > > > > > >koabi
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > >From: owner-scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> > > > > > > >[mailto:owner-scirocco-l@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Dave Ewing
> > > > > > > >Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 9:08 AM
> > > > > > > >To: Scirocco List
> > > > > > > >Subject: Re: Twin 16v Motor pics and site
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >The site did say that each motor was running at 275hp (2.0 or
> > 2.1L
> > > >16v
> > > > > > > >on a serious shot of nitrous).  That would make it 550hp
total.
> > > >Sounds
> > > > > > > >like it could be done!?  I'd love to take a ride in it!!!  I
> > wonder
> > > > > > > >what top speed would be?  I am sure it would only be
restricted
> > by
> > > > > > > >gearing!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Dave
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >--
> > > > > > > >Email LIST problems to: scirocco-l-probs@scirocco.org.
> > > > > > > >To unsubscibe send "unsubscribe scirocco-l" in the message to
> > > > > > > >majordomo@scirocco.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> _________________________________________________________________
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[Disclaimer]This e-mail is strictly confidential and intended solely for the
addressee. It may contain information which is covered by legal,
professional, or other privilege. If you are not the intended addressee you
must not use, disclose, or copy this transmission. This E-mail is not
intended to impose nor shall it be construed as imposing any legally binding
obligation upon GKN Aerospace Chem-tronics Inc. and/or any of its
subsidiaries or associated companies. Neither GKN Aerospace Chem-tronics
Inc. nor any of its subsidiaries or associated companies gives any
representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of the
contents of this E-mail. GKN Aerospace Chem-tronics Inc. shall not be held
liable to any person resulting from the use of any information contained in
this E-mail and shall not be liable to any person who acts or omits to do
anything in reliance upon it.


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