Re: SDS EFI - Unconvinced

["Ben Beacock" <bbeacock@home.com>]

>
> This is exaclty the kind of feedback i'm looking for... this is what I
> posted to vwvortex:
>
>
> What kind of interest is there in a programmable ECU to simply plug into
the
> digifant harness for fuel and ignition map timing?
> how much would you pay considering it is specifically engineered for
> veedubs?
>
> there would also be upgrades available for distributorless ignition
> 16V fuel rail
> sequential injection
> turbo/forced induction.
>
> Anything else you would like to see?
>
> It would be based on the new Motorola 565 PowerPC microcontroller which is
> pretty much current technology.
>
> I currently have a Motorola 68332 setup but would like to develop a system
> specifically for VWs as Digifant cars are becoming much cheaper.
>
> Ben Beacock
> ----------------------------------------
>
> Some more specifics..
> the MAF would be eliminated and use speed-density calculations with a MAP,
> however it could be left in for a simpler less expensive package or as a
> backup to the MAP.
>
> It would be targeted for Digifant II, but with a different pin
> configuration, it could easily be used on Digifant I. However, it would be
a
> bit more expensive because it requires the sequential injection and the
> forced induction software (but without the extra wiring)
>
> The programming software will be developed for a laptop. Anyone can get a
> cheap laptop for $300 that could still run win95, and if you're serious
> enough to want to program your ECU you'll get one anyways. You'd also need
> it for telemetry.
>
> As for cost.. I would estimate about $600-800 for the base system. It
> wouldn't require anything other than an ECU and some software. Any of the
> other upgrades would have additional modular wiring
>
> These are just some of the things I would be looking for. However, I would
> like as many suggestions as possibe.
>
> Thanks
> Ben
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-scirocco-l@scirocco.org
> [mailto:owner-scirocco-l@scirocco.org]On Behalf Of Vee Dubb
> Sent: June 28, 2001 1:35 PM
> To: Scirocco-l
> Subject: SDS EFI - Unconvinced
>
>
> Has anyone tried both an SDS system and one of the PC programmables?  I've
> only had experience with Haltech's PC programmable F9 and F9-A systems and
> I've never used SDS.  I've also used MSD's digital ignition system, which
I
> was very pleased with.  I'll just talk about the fuel side of things
mostly,
> but the same arguments apply to both fuel and ignition, or to combined
> systems like the SDS EC-3, or the Haltech E-6, or elecromotive or motech
> stuff too, I think.  So I'm not trying to say Haltech is definately the
> world's greatest, but it's what I can compare to, and I think its
> representative of the PC programmable croud.  For starters, contrary to
what
> the SDS site claims, Haltech's systems are cheaper than theirs.  Some
other
> systems are a few hundred dollars more than SDS's.  As far as the expense
of
> the computer goes, you only need a dinky computer to program this stuff
> (like a 486 is massive overkill), and you only need a laptop if you want
to
> do datalogging on the road (which sounds like fun, but it's not
necessary).
> Last car I worked on we used a laptop, but we just left it sitting on a
desk
> with a 10' cable going to the car.  Ran it up and down the street and came
> back for rough tuning, then sat next to it on a dyno for the fine tuning
> (dyno's are optional in this game, by the way, but they are convenient).
> It's not like you are going to be programming it while you are driving.
So
> if you only have a desktop, you might have to drag it (or an old spare
> computer) out to the garage.  Besides, antique laptops are only a couple
of
> hundred anyway.  The main motivations listed on the SDS site include the
> following:
>
> 1)  List of basic capabilities - seems you can pretty much compare these
for
> yourself, but I think its safe to say that you can make an engine run well
> if you know what you are doing with any of these systems.  Main difference
> here seems to be 250rpm increments instead of Haltech's 500rpm, but the
> points (for Haltech, and I'd assume for SDS as well) are interpolated
> linearly, so I don't see much advantage there.  Because of the high rpm
> limit (above 10,500rpm) on the car's I have worked on the map is broken
down
> into 1000rpm increments on a Haltech - and the map still looks pretty darn
> flat and the points are still interpolated.  I think the extra precision
> doesn't help much, except maybe at idle, but then there is a separate map
> for that anyway.
>
> 2)  Quality - did you ever see anyone say that their components were
> anything but the industry's best?  Might be true, but who knows?  Anyone
> have any real experience on this issue?  I'm sure that mixing and matching
> components
>
> 3)  PC anxiety - come on folks.  For starters, if you don't understand EFI
> (not that I'm an expert...) then you aren't going to be able to do any of
> this, so the hard part doesn't change.  We all figured out e-mail and can
> probably
> figure out how to install a program on our PC.  The instruction manual for
> Haltech (again, this is probably true of other PC systems, but I only have
> experience with Haltech) gives you a step-by-step run down of how to
program
> it, what each feature does, etc.  The whole thing is pretty much like
> following a cookbook, and is certainly explained better than a Bentley
> manual.  Actually, the first time I used on I had never even seen the
manual
> (just inherited the car from the group who made it), and we were still
able
> to make improvements and understand what was going on.  All I can really
say
> is that it seemed awfully simple to do it on a
> PC.  SDS's scare tactics here are pretty juvenile.
>
>     ONE nice thing about using the PC is the amount of information you can
> see at one time and its graphical presentation. For example, instead of
> programming each point of the temperature compensation graph one-by-one,
on
> a PC you see the whole graph in front of you.  It's a bar graph, and by
> highlighting each bar you can increase or decrease it by one increment or
> ten increments, or type in the value you want (the advantage to having 104
> keys instead of 7).  Other info, like temps, rpms, throttle position, etc.
> are displayed in real time at the bottom of the screen if you ever need
> them.  You can do things like set two points on any graph and
> linearize everything in between, or change a range, or even every map
point
> by some percentage.  Doesn't sound like SDS could let you do this.  Anyone
> know if it someohw can?  Same goes for the main fuel map. The 3-D map
(fuel
> amount vs. throttle position (or MAP if you choose) vs. rpm) is displayed
as
> 2-D maps (fuel amount vs. throttle position) for each rpm range.  There is
a
> pointer to show you which point on the map is being used by the ECU at
that
> instant, and a jump feature that will take you to the part of the map that
> is being used if you aren't already there.  Don't get me wrong - DOS was
> great and all, but I wouldn't want to draw a map point-by-point with it
when
> a GUI is available.  How many times would you back-track, wondering, "now
> what was the last value I put in?"
>
>     Second nice thing is the big SAVE-your-ass feature (pardone my
> Francais).  You can save the entire fuel map as well as all auxilliary
maps
> (closed throttle map, temperature map) and put it on a disk.  Want to try
> out some new cams?  Feel free to change whatever parameters you want.  If
it
> works, save it.  Save as many versions as you like!  Then this time next
> year if you decide you really liked the old setup, then just load the old
> map off of your hard drive.  That way if you start tinkering with stuff
and
> it ends up FUBAR'ed, you just go back to your favorite map and hit the
road.
> Trust me on this one.  Even when you are trying to just make a tiny little
> improvement somewhere, eventually, at least once,  you end up wishing you
> could return
> everything to the way it was.  With a PC system this is no problem.
Imagine
> spending a year writing a thesis and having only one copy!  Would you buy
a
> word processor that only showed you one word at a time and didn't let you
> have a backup copy?
>
> Well, maybe you can tell that I really don't understand the whole idea of
> why you would try to program an ECU with a limited interface when
> significantly better interfaces are available for the same (a bit higher
or
> a bit lower depending on which you choose) price.  I'm still trying to
> figure out whether electromotive, haltech, or one of the others are the
> best, but I can't imagine that SDS is.
>
> So one of you SDS users please chime in here.  Am I just missing
something?
> Like I said before, I'm sure it's possible to tune an engine to run really
> well with an SDS system or any other decent system, but why would you want
> to?
>
>
> Like Mark said, SDS has a nice site, and its worth checking out.  Just
don't
> assume that because you have more information about them they must be
best.
>
> Sincerely (and hoping for someone who can tell me what's what to do so),
>
> Brian Haygood
>
>
>
>
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